The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#101

Post by FridayoLeary » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

brongondwana wrote: post #72

quadrifoliate wrote: post #53

I must admit, if there was a guy giving a lecture at my institution, and I was informed that he had made a Third Reich comparison while talking about admissions criteria, I'd be pretty opposed to the lecture going on. At the same time, I don't like the idea of succumbing to an online mob of sorts. It seems like MIT is thinking kind of like a business here. And perhaps that's the bigger problem – not only are campuses…

I used to think as you outlined here, and then I realised that I would only care if they made a Third Reich comparison that I disagreed with. If they said Milo is literally Hitler, I'd... well, I would have been very confused because Milo is a tasty chocolate drink. But I wouldn't have considered it an offense... so the offense wasn't actually the use of unspeakable comparisons, it was the sin of doing so while disag…

The only things that should be compared to Nazis and Hitler should be the Nazis and Hitler themselves. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Edit: some people think it is reasonable, but they don't want to explain themselves]

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#102

Post by zimpenfish » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

snek_case wrote: post #96

wepple wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power they have isn’t over us, it’s over institutions and businesses who seem to bend to the will of the mob. I’d like to see some data on whether a Twitter storm in a teacup has any measurable negative consequences for a typical large organization, and whether they need to listen as often as they do.

It would be good to pass laws that make it illegal to fire someone over a twitter mob (or any kind of mob action). Anti-mob or anti-bullying laws. And/or initiate class-action lawsuits against twitter for encouraging this kind of behavior or failing to prevent it, resulting in significant damage to people's careers. It's far from being the first time this happens, so there's definitely a case to be made that twitter…

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws

Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#103

Post by SiempreViernes » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #73

quadrifoliate wrote: post #53

I must admit, if there was a guy giving a lecture at my institution, and I was informed that he had made a Third Reich comparison while talking about admissions criteria, I'd be pretty opposed to the lecture going on. At the same time, I don't like the idea of succumbing to an online mob of sorts. It seems like MIT is thinking kind of like a business here. And perhaps that's the bigger problem – not only are campuses…

> "I must admit, if there was a guy giving a lecture at my institution, and I was informed that he had made a Third Reich comparison while talking about admissions criteria, I'd be pretty opposed to the lecture going on." I believe that, broadly speaking, Hitler and Nazi references are beyond tired and cliche at this point. However, "disclaimers" such as this one are disappointing. Because silly Nazi references seem…

I mean, context matters? Nazi comparisons in a comment section is one thing, Nazi comparisons in a opinion piece in a big weekly magazine is a different thing because in the latter case your are supposed to have put actual thought into what you say and how you say it.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#104

Post by adaml_623 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

JimmyAxod wrote: post #42

OJFord wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really an echo chamber though, or at least it's leaky as hell. For example, visit from the UK during the Conservative party conference, and you get 'Trending in the UK - #ToryScum' even without logging in, or logging in to a profile that leans right (i.e. that trending 'hashtag' is the opposite of reinforcing an echo chamber for me if I have one) and there's not even anything particular going on that I'm awa…

Maybe you missed it: At the Labour conference a week or so ago, an MP referred to Tories as “scum”. Yup, that’s the majority of the voting population, and the ones they are trying to win over, are ‘scum’. I agree twitter is a hateful place, but so is the political left. But the vast majority of twitter are also very left wing.

Two factual errors in your comment:

1. "Tories" refers to the party members not the people who voted for them.

2. Only 44% voted for the Tories so not a majority.

I can't disagree that twitter is full of hate but I can laugh at your stated impression about the political left and the political leanings of twitter. It's like complaining that environmental scientists are biased in their belief in climate change.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#105

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #39

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

This appears to be driven at a basic level by a desire for justice. Having had some thousands of years of experience with the quest for justice we can say with some level of certainty that effective justice seeking has some particular characteristics without which justice remains elusive. There must be a clear statement of the injustice which must be corrected. There should be a hearing where all involved can state t…

This is basically it; the normal mechanisms don't work properly, and nobody in the mob has any faith that engaging with any formal process is going to achieve a result, so they complain in public.

(This specific incident sounds like a storm in a teacup, but there's far more serious and less visible problems with racial discrimination in academia)

Similar to #metoo. Reporting sexual harassment, assault and even rape quite often isn't taken seriously by either employers or the police. And in the entertainment industry there was a tacit understanding that reporting it would be a career-ending move. So the route that people have started taking is to complain publicly, in an attempt to shield themselves from retaliation and compel the system to address the complaint.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#106

Post by civilized » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #82

commandlinefan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the majority of people also hold this view His argument is strengthened by, but doesn’t rely on, that fact.

Popularity absolutely does not impact the logical correctness of an argument: an argument is true by virtue of its own structure, if you say popularity somehow affects its correctness you've basically jettisoned logic in favour of subjective opinion. At best popularity serves as a useful heuristic for when you don't have the means to carefully confirm the correctness yourself. (There is a fairly uninteresting special…

Is it so surprising that useful heuristics might be used in lieu of careful thinking for a short mass media essay?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#107

Post by ewindal » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #102

snek_case wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good to pass laws that make it illegal to fire someone over a twitter mob (or any kind of mob action). Anti-mob or anti-bullying laws. And/or initiate class-action lawsuits against twitter for encouraging this kind of behavior or failing to prevent it, resulting in significant damage to people's careers. It's far from being the first time this happens, so there's definitely a case to be made that twitter…

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

Who told you that you can only compare things of equal severity? That would maje comparisons largely useless.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#108

Post by pjc50 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #98

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Twitter et al. need to be eliminated. That simple. They can't moderate/regulate well enough even if they were unbiased. And they aren't. The other angle is to track down every member of every Twitter mob and dox them. Then attack their attacks one-on-one and personal (not violence - just pull everyone they do out of any type of anonymity and lack of consequences).

Good to see HN is in favour of free speech today.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#109

Post by quadrifoliate » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

CodeGlitch wrote: post #78

quadrifoliate wrote: post #53

I must admit, if there was a guy giving a lecture at my institution, and I was informed that he had made a Third Reich comparison while talking about admissions criteria, I'd be pretty opposed to the lecture going on. At the same time, I don't like the idea of succumbing to an online mob of sorts. It seems like MIT is thinking kind of like a business here. And perhaps that's the bigger problem – not only are campuses…

> made a Third Reich comparison while talking about admissions criteria, I'd be pretty opposed to the lecture going on. Why??

I'm thinking mostly like a business. Nazi comparisons are bad for business.

If someone starts bringing up the Nazis in some obscure context during your pizza shop's pepperoni v/s margharita bake-off, what are you going to do? Best thing to do is to move on as quickly as possible, and kick out the person who made Nazi comparisons.

Now I already concede, that perhaps this should not happen on a campus. Perhaps we should explicitly maintain campuses as places where limits might be tested, and have robust responses.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#110

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Hard to imagine a legal approach that does not impermissibly infringe on the free association rights of all the various participants. The question is whether any other mechanism would be sufficient. If Twitter were interested, they could do something to inhibit the flow of the outrage mechanism, but there are strong free speech arguments against doing this. Also it is of course not in Twitter's own best interest.

If we rule out government and Twitter's action, the next idea is to convince enough mob participants themselves that it's not a good idea. This actually does seem feasible. I mean cancel culture itself is only five or six years old, at least as we think if it today. Another broad shift in perspective seems possible.