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A new biography of John von Neumann

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Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#101

Post by rg111 »

everybodyknows wrote: post #80
rg111 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way once. But not any more. Some people might do or were something that I won't like. I have learned to not let that influence me in way, and be comfortably ambivalent. I especially felt bad after I came to know that Richard Feynman slept with many of his friends' wives and tried to sleep with even more of them. He burnt a lot of bridges this way. One Physicist had told me that Feynman hit on his…

Not doubting this, but can you point us to a source?

I read about this mainly in The Life and Science of Richard Feynman by James Gleick.

Also in some blogs and articles. I cannot find these now.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#102

Post by erosenbe0 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #54
sudosysgen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

> He thought (very wrongly) that coexistence with the Soviets was impossible and that they had to be eliminated as soon as possible. Jeez. To drop all jokes, this guy is a lunatic. I'm not sure why people aren't pointing to this as a decisive criticism, since no amount of genius can excuse the idea that civilians need to be attacked or that populations can't coexist and need to be exterminated. This is the first I've…

Keep in mind Von Neumann was ethnically Jewish and the fact that the Jews he would have grown up with went from respected citizens to extermination in a matter of years might have affected him. I have no idea if that is the case but the fatalist, apocalyptic attitude you reference is the kind of thing you occasionally hear from Jews profoundly warped by the atrocities of that era.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#103

Post by erosenbe0 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #89
philwelch wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he made those comments, Stalin was still alive. You have the benefit of 70 years of hindsight and the knowledge that the Soviet Union moderated after Stalin’s death and collapsed entirely of its own accord a few decades later. Additionally, H-bombs didn’t even exist in 1950. A nuclear strike on the Soviet Union in 1950 would have been devastating but not as catastrophic as you would imagine today. It would have…

> If the Nazis won WWII, don’t you think it would be worth at least considering using nuclear weapons in a war to destroy their regime before they developed a competitive nuclear arsenal of their own? Or would you have argued for coexistence with them? That's a fascinating question. I'm not sure what to say. EDIT: Ah, my response is "That's an unfair comparison." The context was that Von Neumann was advocating the ex…

Von Neumann was ethnically Jewish and his relatives or friends literally went from respected citizens to extermination in unfathomably short order; so one would not be surprised if his calculus pertaining to collateral damage in decimating the Nazis would be rather unforgiving.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#104

Post by lsiq »

rg111 wrote: post #68
WalterBright wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Feynman slept with many of his friends' wives and tried to sleep with even more of them. If you're going to indict people for having immoral sex, you'll have to indict probably 90%. If you include trying to have immoral sex, how many would pass your test?

For me personally it's not sex or even immoral sex, it's betraying one's friends. I know the wives were equally guilty. He seduced but never ever forced to anyone's knowledge. He often committed these acts of adultery when he was welcomed as a guest at someone's home . Having adventures on the bed with the wives of the people who invited you in their homes- pretty low to me. The women were adult and consenting, but i…

When I read posts like this I just think, life teaches only some learn.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#105

Post by kaba0 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #37
photochemsyn wrote: post #24

John von Neumann was certainly involved in a lot of scientific discoveries, but from the review this looks more like a hagiography with a goal of rehabilitating the reputation of an incredibly gifted scientist/mathematician whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. 'John von Neumann, the theorist of mutual assured destruction', is how many still view his record. John von N…

> whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. Why is it controversial? I know nothing of Von Neumann, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing. "Coziness" could mean a lot of things, but personally even if Von Neumann was taking the military industrial complex out on a date every Tuesday, I wouldn't see a problem with it. Is the implication that the military was influencing his…

If it seems like the first power to create nuclear bombs will use it and basically annihilate the other, then the only logical step would be to preemptively use it.

And it doesn’t seem like an out of the world assumption that if the Soviets would have created it before, they would have used that - and that is also a fair assumption that the world would be better under faulty capitalism with proper democracy than a single-party dictatorship.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#106

Post by kaba0 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #47
sillysaurusx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I already said, I know nothing about Von Neumann's history. You'll have to fill me in before I can answer that question, since you didn't really say what happened. My criticism had a source which clearly explained what he did and why it had a negative impact. You may want to do the same thing, or I think no one will be impressed with your claim that Neumann personally was the decisive factor in killing a bunch of…

He ended up not being the decisive factor, but as the above said, he advocated for a nuclear first strike on the Soviet Union, and was already part of the nuclear decision-making process - he was invited to participate in the decision for which cities to strike in Japan but was ultimately overruled because he suggested to hit target with no military importance and high concentrations of civilians. He thought (very wr…

It’s easy to determine a “good decision” retroactively.

On what basis would one assume that the Soviets would not initiate an attack as soon as they could? In an extreme, but very much possible at the time view of the world, it was a either-or question which power remains - in that context it very much makes sense to preemptively strike them, even if that is a hard and brutal decision.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#107

Post by kaba0 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #20
yuy910616 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a question of what your definition of "a lot" is. If you use percentage - for example, 1% of parents, of maybe even less - 0.01%, 0.01%*7.7 billion = about a million people. Does percentage make more sense here or absolute number? It depends on your context. I would say in this argument, it seems more certain that Von Neumann's success, which is always a function of both nature and nurture, can probab…

Von Neumann was raised in the absolute best possible environment for intellectual development. It's certainly a meeting of nature and nurture.

Just as thousands upon thousands other people, that fail to become geniuses. So that’s more like a small semi-necessary part, not at all close to sufficient, which welcomes some awe.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#108

Post by kaba0 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #42
yuuu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anyone in this comment thread implying that he's inhuman or a supreme being. It seems like you may be projecting the insecurities of your own background into the discussion. I'm occasionally envious of people with great achievements who had a "privileged" background, but it's certainly not the first thing I point out when their names are brought up.

I didn't point it out as the first thing when his name was brought up. But apparently being Von Neumann is sufficient for your upbringing not to matter, hence why I replied. There are no shortages of people in these threads who genuinely believe that Neumann was supremely intelligent, beyond the conception of regular people. I'm sure you'll find them. It's not even unique to Neumann.

> Neumann was supremely intelligent, beyond the conception of regular people

And they would be right. This sort of genius is not only nurture and hard work, but nature as well. Like no matter what I do in my life, I will never even approach that level.

Of course he is still human, and someone will born (rarely though) that will achieve similar feats, but let’s be honest and just say that what he did is well beyond the reach of the average people.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#109

Post by spacechild1 »

slibhb wrote: post #76
photochemsyn wrote: post #24

John von Neumann was certainly involved in a lot of scientific discoveries, but from the review this looks more like a hagiography with a goal of rehabilitating the reputation of an incredibly gifted scientist/mathematician whose coziness with the military-industrial complex remains controversial to this day. 'John von Neumann, the theorist of mutual assured destruction', is how many still view his record. John von N…

> John von Neumann's record illustrates why brilliant scientists may not be the best architects of foreign policy. In particular, von Neumann's belief in the inevitability of nuclear war led him to call for a first strike against Soviet cities before they could develop a nuclear arsenal. This is a rather difficult political-moral-ethical position to rehabilitate. One also gets the sense that a JvN was a bit stingy wi…

JvN argued for the extermination of the Russian population - which of course is one possible way to end the Soviet regime but hardly what any sane person would wish for.

Re: A new biography of John von Neumann

#110

Post by [deleted] »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #99
misbyrming wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My "coziness" with the military industrial complex would be to help design weapons using AI. I'm simply fine with that. I wouldn't be advocating for the extermination of a population! So you'd be fine helping them design weapons that could exterminate a populace but you wouldn't advocate actually using them?

I’ve thought carefully about it for a long time. I still change my mind from time to time, but currently, the view is that we need to own the space before others do. Suppose you had the option to help discover and design the first nukes. Would it have been better to refuse, and wait for Russia to design them? The early efforts were crucial. If it were possible to ban AI weapons across all countries for the rest of et…

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