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Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#101

Post by nuerow »

celticninja wrote: post #81
nuerow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some guy says it's overblown and this is ranking on HN? The guy quoted for said statement is a professor of medicine of a reputable university, so he does have the authority thing sorted out. Also, I feel the quote means something different than the original interpretation. After reading the article, it seems that John Bell simply states that a) long Covid is "more complicated than people assume", and b) it's incid…

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n490 Sounds like the BMJ dont trust this chap and are questioning his financial interests. Therefore I would question his motives with regard to this article, he isnt very forthcoming which is usually indicative of having something to hide.

> Sounds like the BMJ dont trust this chap and are questioning his financial interests.

The article you mentioned only refers to stock portfolio and potential conflicts of interest regarding policy decisions on performing antibody tests.

The statement that was quoted in this discussion is about an entirely unrelated subject: the prevalence of long Covid. The initial claim is that the statement is supported by data from the Office for National Statistics.

If you want to question John Bell's claim regarding the prevalence of long Covid, just check if his statement is corroborated by the data. Either it's supported or not.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#102

Post by heurisko »

stuaxo wrote: post #14

The Times and Telepgraph have been minimising Covid since day one, even providing a platform for groups such as "us for them". Right now there are no mitigations for Covid in UK schools. One of the things safer schools campaigners are pointing out is the risk of long Covid (as well as hospitalisations etc). Example of Covid in one area of the UK https://mobile.twitter.com/DmodosCutter/status/1445303921300...

Coronavirus's risk to children is low. It's not true that there are no mitigations for Covid: children in the UK are being vaccinated against Covid, as often happens against winter flu.

Measures to protect adults against coronavirus have not come for free for children. Mental health referrals amongst children have doubled since before the pandemic [1]. In more unintended consequences, smoking amongst young people has also surged [2].

Now that we have the vaccine in the UK, and most adults and the vulnerable are vaccinated, I'm against anything that further disrupts a normal childhood, as at this stage, measures would be causing more harm than good.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/23/childrens-nh... [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58317263

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#103

Post by noduerme »

nuerow wrote: post #54
noduerme wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh he's got the "authority thing sorted out" eh? Like every doctor who ever claimed females who were hysterical needed to be vibrated to orgasm to cure their disease...? Or is his authority just on the limited level of chiropractors who spread antivax disinformation on YouTube? Just wondering what level of trust one should place in a man who suddenly catapults into world headlines by claiming millions of people are m…

> Oh he's got the "authority thing sorted out" eh? Yes, he's no rando posting stuff on his Facebook page, nor is he a rapper or media personality. He's an expert from a reputable university that made solid contributions to the fight against COVID-19 , and he is quoting data from the Office for National Statistics. In the very least we should give him the benefit of the doubt. Even though it's true that appeals to aut…

It wasn't a personal attack. I don't know the guy from Adam. It was a response to someone writing that the authority thing was "sorted out."

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#104

Post by nuerow »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #91
nuerow wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is not true. Here is a typical study purportedly showing evidence for long COVID: You've said "study" but you're quoting an article from The Guardian. Also, it seems you even failed to read your source. Your article does not refer to the incidence of long COVID-19. Your source only refers to a statistical study of the prevalence of any of the symptoms that are attributed to long COVID-19, whose goal is clearly…

>>You've said "study" but you're quoting an article from The Guardian. An article which describes the results of a study.. >>Also, I feel you are either misquoting or being disingenuous. The article you quoted quite clearly states that "The most common symptoms were breathing problems, abdominal symptoms, fatigue, pain and anxiety or depression." I'm referring to the graph in that article, which shows that anxiety/de…

> An article which describes the results of a study..

Presenting your own editorialized conclusions is not the same as providing a primary source.

The proof is that you've tried to pass off a study on the quantification of the real world correlation of symptoms tentatively linked to long covid as, somehow, proof of a causal relationship, even though nothing of the sort was suggested.

You're inadvertently demonstrated the need to check primary sources, and the role that tabloids play in disseminating misinformation

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#105

Post by CryptoPunk »

nuerow wrote: post #104
CryptoPunk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>You've said "study" but you're quoting an article from The Guardian. An article which describes the results of a study.. >>Also, I feel you are either misquoting or being disingenuous. The article you quoted quite clearly states that "The most common symptoms were breathing problems, abdominal symptoms, fatigue, pain and anxiety or depression." I'm referring to the graph in that article, which shows that anxiety/de…

> An article which describes the results of a study.. Presenting your own editorialized conclusions is not the same as providing a primary source. The proof is that you've tried to pass off a study on the quantification of the real world correlation of symptoms tentatively linked to long covid as, somehow, proof of a causal relationship, even though nothing of the sort was suggested. You're inadvertently demonstrated…

>>Presenting your own editorialized conclusions is not the same as providing a primary source.

This is a discussion forum. You seem to have an axe to grind with me that's motivated by more than just what I wrote. Are you this non-charitable and critical of those who are sounding the alarm about COVID? This double standard, motivated by political preconceptions, is how dissenting viewpoints are suppressed, and only one viewpoint - that of COVID hysteria - is allowed to express itself.

>>The proof is that you've tried to pass off a study on the quantification of the real world correlation of symptoms tentatively linked to long covid as, somehow, proof of a causal relationship, even though nothing of the sort was suggested.

To clarify, my criticism is of the many who are in fact taking these preliminary results, and drawing the conclusion that long-COVID is afflicting one third of all COVID patients.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#106

Post by noduerme »

antiSingularity wrote: post #72
noduerme wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're just throwing around disinformation. Anecdotes aside, I think your cousin made the right decision to get the vaccine. The virus would have likely done the same and worse. Unless they could have avoided it forever, the choices would be the vax or a full assault by a live replicating virus. 700,000 people have died in the US now from it. Better to live.

And who gets to define my anecdote as "disinformation"? Surely you can't be saying that any story that runs counter to a particular given narrative must be false? (FWIW, it is completely true). How do you know the disease would be worse? This particular relative is in mental anguish, as the kind of statements that you just made are the only available opinions on whether you should get the vaccine. After 6 months of f…

If there was a vaccine for cancer, it wouldn't matter to anyone else if you got it. This is a virus. It's a public sacrifice. As brutal as it sounds, you and I and everyone we know had to line up against a wall, and some people were going to take a bullet for the team. I went in prepared to do that, rather than deluding myself that the virus wasn't real or that it was avoidable. When my uncles were in the Navy, they got pumped full of everything at once through an airgun in the bicep. This is jury duty, voting, your DMV test and your military service rolled into one. It's the price of living in an advanced society. I'm sorry for them - and I hope they recover - but they should be considered a hero. This is simply under the circumstances the only right thing to do.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#107

Post by CryptoPunk »

tfehring wrote: post #46

I think this study, also out of the UK, is the standard reference on long COVID symptoms. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.18.21253633v... I’ll have to look at the survey in more detail but incidence rates would have to be really inconsistent with that study (i.e. probably an order of magnitude lower) to indicate that long COVID is anything other than a massive and serious problem.

You'd have to control for potential confounding factors, like the psychosocial effect of COVID, and the two weeks of total physical isolation every COVID-positve case is subjected to, to even begin to start drawing the conclusion that COVID infections are causing a significant fraction of these self-reported symptoms.

Almost every symptom listed could be a result of anxiety, which in turn can be a result of the extreme fear that is now surrounding COVID.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#108

Post by noduerme »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #74
nicoburns wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to comment on one of those symptoms: chest pain. I do experience this when resting, but I get particularly strong pain when doing any kind of exercise. If it were stress related you would expect exercise to improve symptoms not make them worse. I would also add that while I was certainly a bit depressed by the lockdown, I live in the UK where we are no longer locked down and my mental health has improved greatly.…

>>I do experience this when resting, but I get particularly strong pain when doing any kind of exercise. If it were stress related you would expect exercise to improve symptoms not make them worse. One study on pro-athletes found that 0.6% of cases were confirmed, after cardiac MRI, to have inflammatory heart disease post COVID infection: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/few-pro-... This is only 1/…

Frankly, it's the issues that seem to stem from disruption of neurons in the prefrontal cortex that are the most worrisome. The loss of taste and smell in covid is not caused by congestion, it's caused by a viral attack in the nasal bulb, and it's generally a harbinger of visual and emotional disturbances. One could easily make the case that the drastic rise in violent incidents in public spaces across the world has not been due to the effects of local and sporadic lockdowns on psychological health, but more likely due to the partial frontal lobotomies being performed by the virus.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#109

Post by rob_c »

stuaxo wrote: post #22
rob_c wrote: post #19

Nothing new here. 90%+ of people don't understand that either they're suffering depression from isolating from other humans, or in cases of healthcare, symptoms don't suddenly appear months after a disease or vaccine for hundreds of people like some episode of House. The 1% of legit cases are being let down because were being dragged down by the same mass hysteria that linked vaccines and autism. Chances are this isn…

Covid itself creates an auto immune response. It's estimated one in seven kids will suffer long Covid. The symptoms aren't the symptoms of depression.

Again vaccines autism level of jumping on the first alarmist publications.

There is no statistically significant evidence for this in large scale analyses.

Also, yes of course covid causes an immune response. It's that response that leads to pneumonic symptoms that in the elderly and at risk prove to be fatal. I fail to see how there is any point to be made over stating you get sick and your body reacts.

My statement is that the immune system isn't perfect and there are long term conditions caused by it misbehaving, and that we need to understand this more.

Re: Long Covid is overblown and often something else, says Oxford professor

#110

Post by CryptoPunk »

noduerme wrote: post #108
CryptoPunk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I do experience this when resting, but I get particularly strong pain when doing any kind of exercise. If it were stress related you would expect exercise to improve symptoms not make them worse. One study on pro-athletes found that 0.6% of cases were confirmed, after cardiac MRI, to have inflammatory heart disease post COVID infection: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/03/few-pro-... This is only 1/…

Frankly, it's the issues that seem to stem from disruption of neurons in the prefrontal cortex that are the most worrisome. The loss of taste and smell in covid is not caused by congestion, it's caused by a viral attack in the nasal bulb, and it's generally a harbinger of visual and emotional disturbances. One could easily make the case that the drastic rise in violent incidents in public spaces across the world has…

Where is the evidence for the disruption of neurons in the prefrontal cortex?

>>One could easily make the case that the drastic rise in violent incidents in public spaces across the world has not been due to the effects of local and sporadic lockdowns on psychological health, but more likely due to the partial frontal lobotomies being performed by the virus.

You don't think it could be a result of massive numbers of careers being destroyed, businesses going bankrupt, and people being physically isolated, as governments restrict people's economic and civil liberties?

And isn't it possible that fearful speculation of the type you're engaging in, is creating political support for the restrictions that are creating all of these adverse social effects?

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