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Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

sociology.ucsc.edu

101–110 of 207 posts

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's think about secondary effects. What percent of very wealthy Americans do you think would renounce their citizenship based on this? How much less investment capital would there be in the USA based on that? Note: Not asking for a value judgment ("good riddance if they do!" - not productive). Just your estimate as to what percent of wealthy Americans would give up their citizenship and how much less investment cap…

Echoing what rayiner said - where are the rich going to go? Europe is less friendly to the rich - extremely so in the most pleasant of places. China? India? Neither are very pleasant places, and even with truckloads of cash has a hard time competing with the quality of life enjoyed in the US even under onerous taxation. I think you're not giving enough credit to the American quality of life - it's why my family immig…

Monaco does not have an income tax and I believe it's located in Europe, in a rather nice part of Europe.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#102

There's a pretty simple solution: Abolish the capital gains tax, and tax all capital gains at the income tax rate. There is no more "capital gain". Only income. Whether your income was earned through labor or rents on capital that you own seems rather irrelevant to me.

Let's think about secondary effects. What percent of very wealthy Americans do you think would renounce their citizenship based on this? How much less investment capital would there be in the USA based on that? Note: Not asking for a value judgment ("good riddance if they do!" - not productive). Just your estimate as to what percent of wealthy Americans would give up their citizenship and how much less investment cap…

The wealthy can renounce U.S. citizenship and lose the protection of U.S. system on their properties. Just don't cry when some thugs in their new home island state rob them of their wealth.

The U.S. system provides the scalability for these people to make vast wealth. Shouldn't they pay it back to keep it up? The system is expensive to upkeep. There ain't no free lunch.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#103
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax avoidance. (The marginal rate of tax on capital gains is generally much lower than the marginal rate of tax on an equivalent earned income. The investment professionals who strike it big do so by engineering their income to arrive in the shape of capital. Tax it as income and suddenly a whole lot more tax revenue shows up ... and the Gini coefficient in the society in question drops a little bit.)

Taking advantage of capital gains might be tax avoidance from a certain point of view, but it's also a useful for helping grow wealth and the economy in general. Having large sums of private capital helps the economy-- how does it help it? By making it easy to borrow money, like the VC that so many HNers are seeking.

If capital gains were taxed as regular income, that would mean a whole lot more money would be flowing into the governments coffers, and as such the income tax rate could be lowered as a result for all parties. You'd have to run the numbers to see but it seems reasonable.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#104

It makes perfect sense that most people in the top 0.1% are associated with the financial and banking industries if you know how banks work. Banks, and the Federal Reserve, create new money. They give this money to themselves, and then loan it out. This is as bad as, and effectively equivalent to, counterfeiting. Creating new money, i.e. counterfeiting, i.e. inflation, does not create new wealth. It merely changes th…

This misses the point of the article, which is that many in the top 0.1% got there from some form of self-dealing. His argument is that they are profiting from their position in the economy rather than from the value they add.

And by position, he doesn't mean nearness to the money press. I think he means nearness to the center of wealth and power, which at the moment happens to be the financial industry.

> This is where the wealth of the top 0.1% comes from. Freshly printed money.

I'm sorry but this statement is very wrong. Newly printed money enters the economy through interbank loans. If I borrow $100 my net worth is exactly the same as before. I'm not any wealthier.

To set the record straight: the ability to expand or contract the money supply is an essential tool in managing the economy: the Fed can cool things down in a bubble (by raising rates and contracting the money supply) or heat things up in a downturn (by lowering rates and expanding the money supply). Otherwise, inflation or deflation can spiral out of control.

> Creating new money, i.e. counterfeiting, i.e. inflation, does not create new wealth.

Ok, but creating new money in an effort to grow the economy while managing inflation does create new wealth-- or more accurately, creates an environment in which wealth can more easily be created. Especially in comparison to the alternative: an unmanaged economy that is completely at the mercy of panics and bubbles. Think the last crash was bad? The unemployment rate rose to 14% during the six years following the panic of 1873, which was largely caused and substantially prolonged by the inflexibility of the money supply (which was still tied to silver and gold).

I'm getting a little tired of the anti-fiat currency crowd. You say you learned about economics; you might want to get your money back. I'm sure you're a very smart person, astrohacker, but your perspective here is unsupported and stands in direct contradiction to the last 80 years of economic thought. And no, the bitcoin crowd do not count as economists.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's how banks counterfeit money. You deposit $100. The bank loans out $80 of your money to someone else. They put that money back in the bank. The bank now has $100 - all your money. But your checking account says $100, and the loanee's checking account says $80, for a total of $180. The bank has now effectively created--that is, counterfeited--$80 in new money. They gave this new money to themselves, and then loa…

Ok...so I am going to bite. Fractional reserve banking is the process you described. Give the bank $100, it is then legally obliged to only keep X%, let's say 10%. Hence, why most - if not all - banks today are vulnerable to a 'run on the bank', because banks never have 100% of outstanding liabilities immediately liquid. However, that being said, you make it sound as if those banks are lending/giving that money to ri…

I agree with you, but it's a better argument to say Intel, Facebook, etc. created huge consumer surpluses, so the real beneficiaries of VC investment were the consumers of the products which were created due to VC investments in companies, more so than employees and founders.

Hundreds of millions of people have benefitted from Intel CPUs; far more than have every worked for Intel or owned Intel stock.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok...so I am going to bite. Fractional reserve banking is the process you described. Give the bank $100, it is then legally obliged to only keep X%, let's say 10%. Hence, why most - if not all - banks today are vulnerable to a 'run on the bank', because banks never have 100% of outstanding liabilities immediately liquid. However, that being said, you make it sound as if those banks are lending/giving that money to ri…

> However, that being said, you make it sound as if those banks are lending/giving that money to rich Saudi princes who squander it. They are not. They are lending it to entrepreneurs that have built a business to X point that want to expand. Banks create 80% of the money and declare themselves owner of it, which they then loan out. There is nothing wrong with loaning money. But there is something very wrong with cre…

At this point now, based on your replies, I can only assume you are trolling so I will ignore the first 2 responses and reply the to third and fourth.

>Nope. It very much is because bankers wanted to get rich. The Federal Reserve was designed by bankers. Other central banks are designed by bankers. Governments go along with it because they get to benefit from the inflation just like the bankers.

Are you a techie? Do you understand the web? Who would you want writing legislation to govern the web? Lawyers who are clueless about the web and think that the internet is a series of tubes, or people that are VERY web savvy - like Tim Berners-Lee, et. al? The same thing applies to finance, banking and everything else. Makes no sense to have people writing legislation or creating systems that don't understand what they are doing.

>The Fed does not produce wealth. Any profits they give to the government, thus saving taxpayers a little money, are more than offset by the loss in purchasing power the taxpayers suffer through inflation.

If that's the case, why has inflation been so low in the US in the last two years, when the Fed undertook the largest expansion of it's balance sheet in modern history? i.e. it has printed more money recently, than at any other time in it's mandate - but inflation AND inflation expectations are still low.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#107
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok...so I am going to bite. Fractional reserve banking is the process you described. Give the bank $100, it is then legally obliged to only keep X%, let's say 10%. Hence, why most - if not all - banks today are vulnerable to a 'run on the bank', because banks never have 100% of outstanding liabilities immediately liquid. However, that being said, you make it sound as if those banks are lending/giving that money to ri…

I agree with you, but it's a better argument to say Intel, Facebook, etc. created huge consumer surpluses, so the real beneficiaries of VC investment were the consumers of the products which were created due to VC investments in companies, more so than employees and founders. Hundreds of millions of people have benefitted from Intel CPUs; far more than have every worked for Intel or owned Intel stock.

I agree that hundreds of millions of people have benefited from Intel CPUs, McDonald's burgers and everything else by those companies.

But I was talking in strictly financial terms. The founders, employees and early shareholders benefited the most from those companies in financial terms. The economy did benefit significantly, indirectly, no doubt....just trying to bring it back to his argument about 'bankers milking the fractional reserve system for their profit'.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#108
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok...so I am going to bite. Fractional reserve banking is the process you described. Give the bank $100, it is then legally obliged to only keep X%, let's say 10%. Hence, why most - if not all - banks today are vulnerable to a 'run on the bank', because banks never have 100% of outstanding liabilities immediately liquid. However, that being said, you make it sound as if those banks are lending/giving that money to ri…

I have been wondering about this and you may be the person to answer it. My thought is that inflation only occurs when the increase in money supply is greater than the increase in wealth generated in the economy. So if an economies' wealth increases at 5% a year and so does the money supply then there's no inflation. Have I got this right or even close to the mark?

This is an interesting way to put it, but I must admit I am not sure.

The issue I have with this definition is that wealth can be generated even without new money being created - we are seeing it in Silicon Valley at the moment, where vast amounts of wealth are created largely on the back of old money being recycled.

Strictly speaking, inflation occurs when more money chases the same assets - so the prices of those assets rise to accomodate the new money. So in theory, by having the prices for those assets rising, wealth is created. i.e. if $100B in new money is injected into the economy, and half of that goes into residential real estate, then the average house prices will increase by no other reason than more money is chasing fixed supply.

So the $200,000 house is now worth $300,000 - therefore $100K has been 'created'.

But the way the economy is so complex and intertwined, that increase in wealth could beget another increase in wealth - i.e. the owner of that house could take out say $50K of that to start a business which increases his wealth even more (PG has a fabulous essay about creating wealth from nothing) out of his sweat (i.e. not related to inflation other than the fact that he used the rise in the price of his house to start the process but everything else was his own doing).

The truth is that I don't think modern economics truly understands inflation yet. For instance, America pumped a TON of new money into the economy (both fiscally and monetarily) and inflation has been subdued in America.

China pumped in a moderate amount of money, and inflation has been out of control recently. i.e. much more than the money they have pumped in, so they have been having to tighten the reins.

Suffice it to say, I don't know. I wish I could condense it to a nice nugget like that, but I can't.

If anyone else can, please chime in and do.

That would be interesting to me too.

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#109
post #96

Coming from HN, this just caught my eye on the NYT: "Even Marked Up, Luxury Goods Fly Off Shelves" ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/business/sales-of-luxury-g... ) while the country struggles to pay its debts and is losing its future. Just goes to show how separated the top .5% of American society has become from the rest... What I as a an "Asian-European" will never get is the unmitigated adoration of material we…

> you don't have to be all ethical and bright to realize

Yes, you do. Perhaps these traits are more rare than you realize. You're not just coaxing me to tell you that you are special, right? :)

Re: Who Rules America: An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

#110
post #31

I found this article poorly written and defended. I didn't find it HN worthy. It is basically an investment manager complaining that the wealthiest Americans are mostly in finance and don't pay enough taxes because most of their earnings are from capital gains. He makes a lot of presuppositions in his writing that he never defends. For example: "I asked if her colleagues talked about or understood how much damage was…

By definition, the odds of getting into the top .5% have to be very slim because only .5% of the population can get in there.

No, by definition, the odds of being in the top .5% at any given moment are very slim. In a system with a high degree of economic mobility, it's conceivable that people would enter (and leave) the top N% at a reasonably high rate. Whether or not such high mobility is a good thing is certainly an open question, although the author certainly seems to think it should be higher than it is now.

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