A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#101

Post by adamrezich » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

temp10298385 wrote: post #64

spaceflunky wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. You sure about that? Or is it that the majority of women don't see themselves unclogging toilets for a living? I have never seen it, but I would suspect list of female applications to plumbing or electrician school is very very short.

I do not necessarily agree with the original post’s statement but this response seems confused to me. Few female applicants to trade schools is consistent with the original statement. If it is societally unacceptable for a woman to be a plumber then I would expect women to act as any rational agent and factor this in when planning their future career.

"societal unacceptability" is only one factor. personal choice is another. there's no reason to assume that gender disparities in a given field or trade are solely the result of the existence of the former.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#102

Post by orwin » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #88

pharmakom wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a sample of 3 countries (two with very traditional gender roles), I’m not convinced. In Eastern Europe software engineering was a female dominated field.

It's a legacy of socialist regimes enforcing gender ratios. Gender disparity is usually proportional to freedom of choice. ie. countries where there's less pressure to choose a particular field are more disparate in their gender ratios across disciplines.

I'm not sure about that, i've hear Professor Emeritus Mallard talk about his youth in the genetical field and the first use of computers to assist geneticists, he told me that he basically never saw men doing computer work, and that changed in the 80s, along with the culture.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#103

Post by SixDouble5321 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:34 AM UTC

notfromhere wrote: post #48

There’s a lot of anti-intellectualism that floats around in male culture, and a pernicious attitude that you can make it without a degree (despite the reality that a lack of credentials locks you out of most high paying or leadership roles). Tech likes to pretend credentials don’t matter, but that’s entirely not true. Not surprising that enrollment is down when too many men think learning things is for nerds. Source:…

No degree-having, white, American male with software job reporting in.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#104

Post by noncompliant » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

PaywallBuster wrote: post #76

average joe: blue collar job, make 20$ per hour woke jane: liberal arts degree, 8$ per hour job at starbucks

well this "woke jane" could still study and after a while learn a trade if education were affordable.

there is nothing wrong with having an educated working class. nothing should restrict you from being a plumber with an history degree.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#105

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

nickysielicki wrote: post #94

Arainach wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can make NYC/SF money and save/invest a portion of your income, you can retire and do significantly better elsewhere. You can't do the opposite. If you can have a decent lifestyle in Ohio on 40k (big if, when you factor in retirement planning) you can still fundamentally never leave Ohio.

> you can still fundamentally never leave Ohio. God forbid. Think of all the experiences you and your family will miss out on! Lately all I want is to get as far away from people as possible. The internet has negated every advantage of these regions and of money broadly. You cannot buy a nuclear family.

The internet has not negated every advantage of regions, unfortunately (Employers are still making folks come to the office) and it still costs money to move elsewhere.

Folks in Ohio still have trouble leaving Ohio.

And you can, to an extent, buy a nuclear family. Mail order brides still exist (and the arrangement can be beneficial for both parties). You can do this with the expectation of children, which you will pay for in the US. Alternatively, you can check adoption as plenty of agencies will make you feel like you are buying a child. (20k upwards, plus travel).

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#106

Post by bob1029 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:40 AM UTC

throwinthsaway wrote: post #3

Getting into debt to get a piece of paper that only lets you begin to enter the job market after gathering enough credentials by either working for free or talking to others and hopefully trying your luck even though there are 100s for a single internship... College is a scam unless you're paying close attention and don't get into debt in the first place. Those who manage to jump through all of the hoops don't realiz…

Stock options and other scalable forms of compensation are a huge deal for our organization now.

The funny thing is we also don't give a shit about credentials anymore. We just want work ethic followed loosely by experience.

Willingness to endure difficult things and learn is all we are really going for in a new hire these days.

What is amazing to me is all of the business leaders who still insist on upholding these arbitrary gatekeepers. You are leaving a ton of talent on the table.

I think the answer for many is to focus harder on the business value equation and to just let the people be free. Running a business like a power fantasy is not going to get you there. The more you try to control people the harder it will be to make money with them in the long term.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#107

Post by teekert » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

I can understand this. I think my parents never questioned the usefulness of a formal education. But I am starting to.

My brother tried several different educational paths, pushed by my parents. In the end he got a sort of burnout. After years now he is picking up some work, mainly helping elderly still living alone on any tasks (from computer related to doing groceries). He seems happy, finally.

My other brother hated all his schools, got bullied a lot, he specialized in agriculture in the end. Now he's a truck driver (with one of those super big ones), he likes it. He can still give nice advice on what to plant in my garden, so there's that.

I see that my son is also really interested in many things, but school is not so much "his thing". Sitting still, listening, it's not making him happy. If he has any aspiration of building a life without formal schooling I'd support it. There is so much to learn online. He can be an entrepreneur and we can help him get there. In fact, I'd enjoy it.

Who knows with the insane cost of education, this generation of men may end up self-taught, happy and (in the US important) debt free. Maybe we should worry about the people missing out on this opportunity?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#108

Post by trainsplanes » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:43 AM UTC

Arete314159 wrote: post #42

One guy they profiled is making $20 an hour in Toledo, Ohio. If he's working full time, that's 40k a year. Zillow has a number of houses for sale in Toledo for under $40k. Like, they need some work, but a real house, under 40k. I think that guy is doing fine, he should just keep doing exactly what he's doing.

Are the houses in safe neighborhoods? If there are cheap houses in a city and nobody's buying, there's a good reason for that. Carefully taken pictures online may look okay, but people in many cities know to steer clear of specific areas.

And regarding repairs, I've been to houses that have decent photos online, but upon entering, they're clearly rotting out. It'd be cheaper to knock the house down and start again.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#109

Post by belorn » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #37

The thing that struck me right off the bat was that the lead photo of this story is of 18-year-old with a PS5 and pretty sweet setup in his bedroom. I don't have anything deep to add to this, but if you can sit at home in your childhood bedroom indefinitely playing video games and working menial jobs, maybe the allure is there.

The lead image is there to direct the reader towards a specific way of thinking, similar in way that if the article has been about prison it would be an image of black young men dealing drugs. It is a narrative and implication that if "group X" did not choose to do that then the problem that group X has would not exist. The author could as easily chosen an lead imagine of the same person in a class room with a narrative that it is the school system that is failing to get the demographic to enroll, or an image of an college class photo to illustrate the lack of diversity and imply subtle blame on which ever demographic that would dominate the image.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#110

Post by heurisko » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 7:52 AM UTC

durnygbur wrote: post #75

atraac wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those who manage to jump through all of the hoops don't realize that there is a secondary scam waiting for them: working for a wage without significant stock options while someone makes millions sitting around doing nothing off of their effort. I know this is the thing in US and shouldn't surprise me but I'm based in central Europe and honestly the thought of this still feels so abstract to me. I'd love to have an…

Europe is behind of America in this regards, Europeans are submissive, timid, and desperate. Want to know where are your stock options? Travel south to the Mediterranean and watch - mansions, palaces, yachts, butiques, luxurious hotels, hostesses and models, German limousines and supercars. There they are.

I'm a Northern European and just buy stock on the market. My union is pretty strong, and I enjoy healthcare and more than two weeks holiday I hear is typical in the states.

It's not altogether a good idea to have a lot invested in the company you work for, as if they go under, your stock is also not worth so much, and you might lose your income at the same time too.