The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux • Hacker News Board

Re: The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

#101

Post by robinsoh » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #47

jjuel wrote: post #39

I was hoping for an affordable competitor to the Remarkable, but seems like it is just a competitor not necessarily affordable like a lot of the other Pine products. Not to say it won't be great or it is a bad thing, but had my hopes up when I saw the title. I cannot justify spending that amount for that type of product. Again not a knock as it is nice to see them get into this market just not what I thought when I o…

As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. I find it pretty unfortunate, because E-Ink really, really shines in terms of battery life and readability, and I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets.

> As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space.

"E-Ink licensing"?

Tell us more.

> I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets.

What are the current fees?

Re: The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

#102

Post by horsawlarway » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

robinsoh wrote: post #101

horsawlarway wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. I find it pretty unfortunate, because E-Ink really, really shines in terms of battery life and readability, and I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets.

> As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. "E-Ink licensing"? Tell us more. > I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets. What are the current fees?

I mean simply that E-Ink (EPDs) remains incredibly patent incumbered, and the primary holder does not sell screens cheaply.

Your format and incredibly late reply make me think you're asking some sort of "Gotcha" question here, and I have no idea why.

see:

About E Ink

E Ink is the recognized leader and innovator in electronic ink technology, with over 600 U.S. patents, and 1,374 worldwide patents. E Ink continues to aggressively fund and place corporate priority on innovation, invention, and the *defense of its extensive intellectual property holdings*.

E Ink Corporation was spun out from MIT’s Media Lab in 1997 to commercialize electronic ink and electronic paper display (EPD) technology. In 2009, E Ink Corporation was purchased by Prime View International (PVI), a leading small and medium sized TFT-LCD and EPD provider. PVI was later renamed E Ink Holdings, Inc.

E Ink Holdings Inc. (8069.TWO) is now the world's largest supplier of EPD displays to the eReader market. It has transformed and defined the eReader market and is redefining the signage, architecture and design, mobile, wearable and retail markets with its ePaper technology, enabling a new multi-billion dollar market in less than 10 years. Its corporate philosophy aims to deliver revolutionary products, user experiences, and environmental benefits through advanced technology development. This vision has led to its continuous investments in the field of ePaper displays as well as expanding the use of its technologies into a number of other markets and applications, including smart packaging and fashion. Its EPD products make it the worldwide leader for ePaper. Its Fringe Field Switching (FFS) technologies are a standard for high-end LCD displays and have been licensed to all major liquid crystal display makers in the world. E Ink Holdings is listed in Taiwan's Taipei Exchange (TPEx) and the Luxembourg market. For more information please visit www.eink.com.

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Edit - I see from your other replies this is clearly intended as a "gotcha" question, but I think you're incorrect in your assumption that volume is the problem. I'd argue that much like 3d printing, the issue is not really costs, but rather patents and licensing... as I clearly alluded to above.

For comparison, Amazon alone is shipping 20+ million EPD products a year through kindles. Most LCD TV manufacturers ship around the same volume, and the industry total is only around 200 million. see: https://www.statista.com/statistics/668519/lcd-tv-shipments-...

Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sales.

Re: The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

#103

Post by robinsoh » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #102

robinsoh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. "E-Ink licensing"? Tell us more. > I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets. What are the current fees?

I mean simply that E-Ink (EPDs) remains incredibly patent incumbered, and the primary holder does not sell screens cheaply. Your format and incredibly late reply make me think you're asking some sort of "Gotcha" question here, and I have no idea why. see: About E Ink E Ink is the recognized leader and innovator in electronic ink technology, with over 600 U.S. patents, and 1,374 worldwide patents. E Ink continues to a…

> Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sale

As I've said before, a shred of evidence for such a confident claim would help convince me.

Also I seriously doubt Amazon hits 20 million kindles a year.

Re: The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

#104

Post by horsawlarway » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

robinsoh wrote: post #103

horsawlarway wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean simply that E-Ink (EPDs) remains incredibly patent incumbered, and the primary holder does not sell screens cheaply. Your format and incredibly late reply make me think you're asking some sort of "Gotcha" question here, and I have no idea why. see: About E Ink E Ink is the recognized leader and innovator in electronic ink technology, with over 600 U.S. patents, and 1,374 worldwide patents. E Ink continues to a…

> Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sale As I've said before, a shred of evidence for such a confident claim would help convince me. Also I seriously doubt Amazon hits 20 million kindles a year.

But there is plenty of evidence, you simply ignore it and then make claims based on your evidence-less "insider" knowledge.

Wired discusses patent restriction here: https://www.wired.com/2016/05/get-ready-world-covered-electr...

Just look at the relevant patents still being filed by the company here (mostly trash): https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc

See patent suits across the globe - Germany: https://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2015/03/02/german-court-fi...

Here is the position for their patent lawyer, who actively discusses their "offensive and defensive" actions around their patents: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-bean-0988645

Here are articles discussing the 115k yearly buy-in for their tech (https://www.epo.org/news-events/events/european-inventor/fin...). And note - if you're not large enough to discuss that with them, they usually won't even bother responding.

Wonder why 2016 saw a rapid increase in EPD devices? It's because they lost that 2015 case in the EU.

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So your whole argument boils down to - "they don't do the volume". Which is true but meaningless: Clearly there is demand for these devices, why is the volume not ramping up to match? And I'm saying "Patents and IP restrictions". What are you claiming?

Re: The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

#105

Post by robinsoh » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 1:27 AM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #104

robinsoh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sale As I've said before, a shred of evidence for such a confident claim would help convince me. Also I seriously doubt Amazon hits 20 million kindles a year.

But there is plenty of evidence, you simply ignore it and then make claims based on your evidence-less "insider" knowledge. Wired discusses patent restriction here: https://www.wired.com/2016/05/get-ready-world-covered-electr... Just look at the relevant patents still being filed by the company here (mostly trash): https://patents.justia.com/assignee/e-ink-holdings-inc See patent suits across the globe - Germany: htt…

> But there is plenty of evidence, you simply ignore it and then make claims based on your evidence-less "insider" knowledge.

Lets go through the "evidence" you've provided.

> Wired discusses patent restriction here

It doesn't. That paragraph is a quote from Yashar Behzadi, the disgraced ex-CEO of Popslate that stole the money of their indiegogo funders. "Popslate shuts down after raising $1m on Indiegogo". http://oaxis.com/en/popslate-shuts-1m-indiegogo/

> Just look at the relevant patents still being filed by the company here (mostly trash)

I'm not going to debate that with you. But I'm sure you'll consider a patent filed by IBM on linked lists as innovative?

> See patent suits across the globe - Germany:

Yes, good, they lost a patent suit against a 3rd party buyer. I think that indicates the legal system is working properly.

> Here is the position for their patent lawyer,

And what is wrong with that? What exactly is objectionable there?

> Here are articles discussing the 115k yearly buy-in for their tech

Except you've managed to confuse E Ink with the MIT MediaLab Consortium. "MIT Media Lab's News in the Future group and its Things that Think consortium, which consists of about 40 companies, including Microsoft and other heavyweights. Each of the participating corporations paid up to €115,000 per year and thus obtains the right to use any patents awarded to MIT without paying additional royalties. "

> Wonder why 2016 saw a rapid increase in EPD devices? It's because they lost that 2015 case in the EU.

I haven't seen such a rapid increase.

I remember you used the term "bullshit" to describe my opinions. I've read through your initial claims that were presented with such confidence that any reader would assume they were gospel truth. It is clear to me now that Dunning Kruger is quite in effect with your claims.