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What I'm Up to Now

martinfowler.com

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Re: What I'm Up to Now

#101

Post by amw-zero »

moonchrome wrote: post #95
amw-zero wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is always the case, I feel the exact opposite. The #1 source of pain in my career is people not understanding that certain concepts / principles are really the key to surviving in a complex system. But, we probably don't build the same kinds of software. Shooting him down because he isn't talking about the kind of software you build is pretty ignorant.

I think the problem is people who aren't building these kinds of systems learn these "best practices" without the context and then you get frustration like OP, and you can often blame the people selling these approaches (I mean understandably they want to promote their work, no doubt it works in their scenario) But I've seen this in every direction possible at this point : - people talking about horizontal and vertic…

I totally agree with that. Everything is contextual.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#102

Post by blub »

kybishop wrote: post #69

Lots of comments here opposed to Martin Fowler's advice. I'm curious if anyone who is anti-Fowler has software design books they _do_ recommend? (Asking because I'd love to read them)

People like Martin Fowler or Robert Martin seem to be more famous for the books that they write about software instead of being famous for the software that they write. I don't think it should be possible for somebody to become an authority on software design without them showing their designs to the world. If they work exclusively on proprietary software, then they should provide some other kind of proof that the recommendations that they make are beneficial and demonstrate how helpful they are. E.g. anonymous metrics from their client pool, detailed analyses of various OSS projects, etc.

When e.g. John Carmack talks about a technical topic there's a very long and very public record of the kind of experience that he has. It's reasonable to trust that they are correct, although one should still verify before betting their project/company/career on that piece of advice.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#103

Post by blub »

shaicoleman wrote: post #84
s1k3s wrote: post #61

Probably not necessarily on topic - but I really want to say that this guy has been the #1 source of pain in my developer career so far. There've been so many projects where I had to implement some solution some way because the "architect" said "that's how Fowler recommends it, so that's how we're doing it", even if the solution was so bad that everyone saw it coming back to bite us from miles away. I read his books…

Fowler's article that made the most impact on me is the one about Monolith First, and how you shouldn't start with a complex distributed architecture, even if you're confident you'll need it in the future. https://martinfowler.com/bliki/MonolithFirst.html Fowler shares ideas of architecture, but in a nuanced way, and clearly states when it might be appropriate, and what are the costs and complexities involved. The pr…

What's remarkable to me is that Fowler is telling an interesting story about a technical decision, includes an entertaining diagram, but in the end doesn't provide any proof either way.

There's not a single piece of hard data in that article, not even how many of his colleagues are making the specific recommendation.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#104

Post by abraxas »

s1k3s wrote: post #61

Probably not necessarily on topic - but I really want to say that this guy has been the #1 source of pain in my developer career so far. There've been so many projects where I had to implement some solution some way because the "architect" said "that's how Fowler recommends it, so that's how we're doing it", even if the solution was so bad that everyone saw it coming back to bite us from miles away. I read his books…

Yes, I once said at work that "the sad testament to the sorry state of our industry is that Fowler can still make good money rather than be chased with pitchforks". It did not go over well with the rest of the architects. I still stand by that.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#105

Post by abraxas »

benhoyt wrote: post #73
s1k3s wrote: post #61

Probably not necessarily on topic - but I really want to say that this guy has been the #1 source of pain in my developer career so far. There've been so many projects where I had to implement some solution some way because the "architect" said "that's how Fowler recommends it, so that's how we're doing it", even if the solution was so bad that everyone saw it coming back to bite us from miles away. I read his books…

I sympathize (I like saying I don't do BDD, Buzzword-Driven Development), but I'm not terribly up on Fowler's work -- can you provide some concrete examples of things he recommends that were over-engineered or just plain bad for your use cases?

Rational Unified Process. Let's start right here.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#106

Post by ramraj07 »

dvaun wrote: post #89
plorkyeran wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

REST as Fowler advocated for is used approximately nowhere. The widely used thing known as REST is very unlike it.

Rather, perhaps people should take a look at the thoughts about REST from the researcher who wrote the original dissertation: https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...

Someone please help here, im reading all the links here and still drawing a blank on what is and is not REST! Can someone link to an API that’s truly RESTful? And perhaps one that’s barely not?

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#107

Post by voiceofunreason »

ramraj07 wrote: post #106
dvaun wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather, perhaps people should take a look at the thoughts about REST from the researcher who wrote the original dissertation: https://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypert...

Someone please help here, im reading all the links here and still drawing a blank on what is and is not REST! Can someone link to an API that’s truly RESTful? And perhaps one that’s barely not?

REST is the architectural style of the World Wide Web: browsers reading cached copies of web pages that link to other web pages.

So almost any site you hit with your browser is a "RESTful API". Another decent example is Atom Syndication / Atom Publishing.

The best introduction that I've found is Jim Webber's 2011 talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQVSzMV8DWc&t=3m8s Jon Moore's 2010 Hypermedia APIs talk is also good https://vimeo.com/20781278

Unfortunately, a second idea appeared, that embraced the label "REST" but used it to mean something else (roughly, a set of conventions for how to organize web pages and the edits one makes to web pages). And the second idea was written and shared with a much larger audience than the first (in addition to being an "easier" idea), so it grabbed a super majority of the mind share.

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#108

Post by solarengineer »

abraxas wrote: post #105
benhoyt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize (I like saying I don't do BDD, Buzzword-Driven Development), but I'm not terribly up on Fowler's work -- can you provide some concrete examples of things he recommends that were over-engineered or just plain bad for your use cases?

Rational Unified Process. Let's start right here.

(Disclosure: I'm at Thoughtworks, but my opinions are my own. In fact, we're so broadly dispersed across the world that we can't claim to represent a "Thoughtworks" opinion).

Did you mean his writing here (2005): https://martinfowler.com/articles/newMethodology.html#ration... ?

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#109

Post by hitekker »

bsder wrote: post #98
s1k3s wrote: post #61

Probably not necessarily on topic - but I really want to say that this guy has been the #1 source of pain in my developer career so far. There've been so many projects where I had to implement some solution some way because the "architect" said "that's how Fowler recommends it, so that's how we're doing it", even if the solution was so bad that everyone saw it coming back to bite us from miles away. I read his books…

Everybody forgets that the Chrysler Comprehensive Compensation System project that spawned most of these guys was a massive disaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Comprehensive_Compens... But, then, this just proves the business aphorism that, for your career, it is better to be part of a gigantic disaster than a modest success.

I definitely didn't know about this. It's a shame you're the only one to remember. Thanks for sharing.

It's telling that one Wikipedia’s citations describes their customer burning out due to the evangelized methodology: http://www.coldewey.com/publikationen/conferences/oopsla2001...

And then Martin handwaves the project's failure away, claiming he wasn't that involved, and that his methodology is blameless: https://www.martinfowler.com/bliki/C3.html

Re: What I'm Up to Now

#110

Post by JamesBarney »

blub wrote: post #103
shaicoleman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fowler's article that made the most impact on me is the one about Monolith First, and how you shouldn't start with a complex distributed architecture, even if you're confident you'll need it in the future. https://martinfowler.com/bliki/MonolithFirst.html Fowler shares ideas of architecture, but in a nuanced way, and clearly states when it might be appropriate, and what are the costs and complexities involved. The pr…

What's remarkable to me is that Fowler is telling an interesting story about a technical decision, includes an entertaining diagram, but in the end doesn't provide any proof either way. There's not a single piece of hard data in that article, not even how many of his colleagues are making the specific recommendation.

What proof would you expect him to bring?

It's an article about his experience as a technical expert brought in to consult on many projects.

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