A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence • Hacker News Board

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#101

Post by aeturnum » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

jdjd6 wrote: post #100

stefan_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point? These systems invariably turn out to not be any sort of AI at all, but sales people ready to make a call any way their customer (police) wants it made. Later it's presented as AI to a jury. It's basically the same scam as lots of forensics, junk science to get a desired result.

It really boggles my mind how desperate people are to try and include and blame the police for everything. >sales people ready to make a call any way their customer (police) wants it made. You really believe people signed up for a dangerous amd thankless job with high liability and low pay so they can feverishly conspire to have this guy arrested? Edit: This place is becoming reddit. Someone posting links which dont…

Just fyi - Police are generally quite well paid for the area they live in. For example, in Alameda (the county I live in) it's common for police to make over $450,000 a year[1].

Also, while police to have a more-dangerous-than-average job[2] (and face unique risks - they are probably the most likely profession to die of a gunshot on the job), there are much more dangerous jobs[3].

So if you have been excusing police because you think they are accepting poverty for danger, I'd ask you to consider that Police are more like extremely well paid garbage collectors[4].

[1] https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/2019/alameda-coun...

[2] https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm

[3] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/logging/default.html

[4] https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-...

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#102

Post by meowster » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

meowster wrote: post #30

jwilk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean?

I think OP meant that "driving through Chicago" was pretty large/vague area for someone just trying to buy cigarettes. It's like saying I was driving through the United States to go to my local corner store. I wouldn't have thought about the poor writing if OP didn't mention it, but it is still a bit pedantic in my opinion.

Thank you everyone (including OP) who clarified that it was "it's said".

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#103

Post by sdenton4 » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

theelous3 wrote: post #92

sdenton4 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most forensic science is junk. That said, human in the loop ML can be extremely useful. Surfacing possible positive examples for human review and/or cutting down 'obvious' negatives can multiply the productivity of human reviewers in many contexts.

> Most forensic science is junk. I'm ignorant on the topic. Got links?

Forensics is full of gee-whiz-cool csi stuff which eventually is shown to be worthless. Polygraphs are a great example; they're still very wisely used in the US, despite piles of evidence showing they're prone to both false positives and false negatives. Sibling comments saying they aren't forensics because they've been discredited are missing the point: these are typical crime tech, and have been lately discredited, but are still in use in the US regardless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph

For a more recent example, here's an article on denim analysis...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/science/denim-pattern-mat...

The underlying problems seem to be bad incentives (the prosecution is paid+evaluated on its ability to put people in jail) and the court's willingness to accept insufficiently validated tech.

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#104

Post by thatguy0900 » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #45

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's scary that prosecutors thought that the ShotSpotter evidence is suitable for a court. It's amazing technology that can help police get to a crime scene quickly but is far too easy to spoof or get the wrong answer due to reflections and other sounds etc. Hopefully cases like this will eventually stop the system being used in court.

"Hopefully cases like this will eventually stop the system being used in court." Maybe it will stop this system from being used in court, but new ones will take its place. It would be great if we could change the structure of the justice system to prevent these types of issues from popping up again. I have no idea what a solution would look like.

If you did that then everyone on here would be ranting about old judges and a luddite system instead

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#105

Post by pixl97 » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #47

leephillips wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some departments deploy dogs that alert on all vehicles when they want an excuse to search. In at least one department, this was referred to as “probable cause on four legs”. If judges continue to allow this quality of evidence, the police will continue to abuse the legal environment that creates.

Let's face it - most judges are, at least subconsciously, on the same side as the police and prosecutors even though that's not how the system should work.

You know what you call a judge, a prosecutor, and a cop eating at the same table?

Your average lunch near the courthouse.

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#106

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #47

leephillips wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some departments deploy dogs that alert on all vehicles when they want an excuse to search. In at least one department, this was referred to as “probable cause on four legs”. If judges continue to allow this quality of evidence, the police will continue to abuse the legal environment that creates.

Let's face it - most judges are, at least subconsciously, on the same side as the police and prosecutors even though that's not how the system should work.

I don’t know about that. Judges have front row seats to the 10,000 ways that cops, prosecutors and defense attorneys screw up every day.

If anything, I think the expense of defense and the poor quality of public defenders probably accounts for bias.

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#107

Post by rjzzleep » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #80

wyager wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fingerprinting is junk science. Polygraphs are junk science. Tons of things that have been or are admissible as evidence are junk science.

> Fingerprinting is junk science. How then do you explain the success of Touch ID on Apple devices and the equivalent systems on other phones and tablets? Random people can't just walk up and unlock a Touch ID device with their fingerprint, which suggests that fingerprints are in fact a very good way to tell people apart. Yes, it is possible to make a fake fingerprint that Touch ID will not be able to distinguish fro…

Ok, but supposing what you say is true, they are junk science when it comes to forensics. There is research on capturing the full 3D structure of fingerprints to actually capture the uniqueness of a fingerprint[0]. But even if the 2D scan is enough not every scanner is capable of collecting that structure.

Given how much R&D goes into making better fingerprint scanners, it seems odd to then claim that a fingerprint taken off of a victim has anything near that level of detail. I guess its sound to say that it may be used as a piece of evidence to further narrow down the target, but its completely disingenuous to claim that it's sound evidence.

[0]: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9160923

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#108

Post by psychlops » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #82

scoopertrooper wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your slippery slope includes the abolition of pre-trial discovery, it's a very slippery slope indeed.

When does slope become cliff?

When it's your phone.

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#109

Post by d4mi3n » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

jdjd6 wrote: post #100

stefan_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point? These systems invariably turn out to not be any sort of AI at all, but sales people ready to make a call any way their customer (police) wants it made. Later it's presented as AI to a jury. It's basically the same scam as lots of forensics, junk science to get a desired result.

It really boggles my mind how desperate people are to try and include and blame the police for everything. >sales people ready to make a call any way their customer (police) wants it made. You really believe people signed up for a dangerous amd thankless job with high liability and low pay so they can feverishly conspire to have this guy arrested? Edit: This place is becoming reddit. Someone posting links which dont…

I think you're conflating issues with the institution of policing within the United States with the behavior of individual police officers. Without getting into the politics or philosophy of the comportment or purpose of a police force, there are some things in situations like this that are fact:

1. Police officers (and more importantly, prosecutors) are incentivized to make arrests and have those arrests stick.

2. It's a well understood psychological phenomenon that individuals are much more lenient of their own actions. They call this attribution theory in psychology [1].

3. While policing is a risky job, it comes with privileged treatment, powers, and trust that a common citizen does not have. As such, and as public servants, we hold those with these powers to a higher degree of responsibility and behavior than those without such powers. To hold police accountable, we need a minimum level of oversight and control. Historically, this has either not happened or been circumvented by way of police unions establishing ill-advised contracts with the local governments they work with. [2]

I'll agree on points that individual police officers aren't evil, but I'd need a lot of convincing to believe that many policing organizations within the United States are not being held accountable to an acceptable level; nor are they being trained in ways that encourage appropriate interactions with the public they serve.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_(psychology)

[2]: https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

Re: A man spent a year in jail on murder charge that hinged on disputed AI evidence

#110

Post by sharken » Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #101

jdjd6 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really boggles my mind how desperate people are to try and include and blame the police for everything. >sales people ready to make a call any way their customer (police) wants it made. You really believe people signed up for a dangerous amd thankless job with high liability and low pay so they can feverishly conspire to have this guy arrested? Edit: This place is becoming reddit. Someone posting links which dont…

Just fyi - Police are generally quite well paid for the area they live in. For example, in Alameda (the county I live in) it's common for police to make over $450,000 a year[1]. Also, while police to have a more-dangerous-than-average job[2] (and face unique risks - they are probably the most likely profession to die of a gunshot on the job), there are much more dangerous jobs[3]. So if you have been excusing police…

With $450,000 as yearly pay i should give up being a software developer. Alameda even has a violent crime rate of half the US average.

https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Alameda-California.htm...

I do wonder if the pay negatively affects the confrontations that the individual officer will risk, e.g. let a suspect escape due to not having good enough backup.