Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#101

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

decentralised wrote: post #40

dyndos wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key distinction is that PoW is permissionless, whereas PoS is permissioned. Bitcoin is secured by hashpower, which is produced by physical capital outside the network. Nobody needs to ask for permission to start hashing and trade kilowatts for sats. PoS networks are secured by on-chain assets. This means you can't "mine" it without first buying tokens from someone who already owns them. You need permission from a…

>Another aspect of this is 51% attacks are recoverable for PoW, but are a permanent takeover condition for PoS networks. If a single entity ever accumulates more than half the tokens on a PoS network, they are unassailable. This is not true. PoS has many design flavours and the one Ethereum is planning on implementing includes random selection of validators and the amount staked has no influence on the inclusion or t…

Not to mention that Ethereum has shown willingness to hard fork to punish/reward specific actors.

If an actor pulled off a 51% attack on Ethereum I'd be surprised if there wasn't an effort to just hard fork them out of their resources.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#102

Post by potiuper » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

Is there a site like https://ethernodes.org/london, but also with a % of the hashpower? An anti-EIP 1559 mining cartel made an attempt to fork Ethereum and it would be interesting to know how close they came. https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-mining-pools-threaten-cont...

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#103

Post by fogof » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

eric-hu wrote: post #87

lasagnaphil wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you're just an owner. If you're a miner though... that's a whole different story.

Not a miner but I’m curious. What should miners be doing differently?

I don't think there's anything miners really have to do differently because of this. The only big thing would be to make sure to upgrade your software to the version that has the code for the hard fork (though at this point the hard fork has already happened, so you would be a bit late). But regular users should upgrade their hardware too so that their clients track the correct chain, otherwise they might not see the right balance.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#104

Post by chrisco255 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #96

If Ethereum can hard fork like this, it stands to reason as well that the 21 Million Bitcoin limit is a lot more changeable than Bitcoin proponents would say. Or the opposite is true - and Ethereum is under heavily centralized control.

All blockchains are controlled by rough consensus. There's already like half a dozen Bitcoin forks in the wild (Bitcoin Cash, BSV, etc). When Bitcoin Cash forked off from the main chain in 2017, the community ultimately decided which chain was the "legitimate" one.

Of course Bitcoin could decide to increase the issuance. In doing so, however, it would inevitably lead to a fork (with the 21M holdouts in one camp and the inflationists in another) and the community would ultimately need to decide which one to support.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#105

Post by chrisco255 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #10

echopurity wrote: post #5

Congrats to the ETH development crew for another smooth upgrade. Good luck and please be careful with the transition to POS!

I hope this eases the demand for graphics cards somewhat.

That won't happen until the merge to proof of stake, which is supposed to happen early 2022.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#106

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #96

If Ethereum can hard fork like this, it stands to reason as well that the 21 Million Bitcoin limit is a lot more changeable than Bitcoin proponents would say. Or the opposite is true - and Ethereum is under heavily centralized control.

Ethereum is so enthusiastic about hard forks (or in ETH speak, upgrades) that they have the difficulty bomb which works like the debt ceiling. It's necessary to do a hard fork/upgrade every so often.

Meanwhile bitcoin is so against hard forks/upgrades that they can basically only do soft forks and currently do that by a 90% voting agreement by miners.

Bitcoin can not even increase the blocksize, the sure as hell aren't going to change the emission. Some day far down the line the block subsidy might be low enough that lots of miners go dark. At that point they'll need to choose between 21 million bitcoins and network security.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#107

Post by voldacar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

neatze wrote: post #27

bgroat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is that it isn't, and none of these systems ever were. They're distributed, not decentralized. And this distinction, and the refusal to acknowledge it is what put me off crypto entirely.

Same here, market(s) over time will be cornered without control policies that counter monopoly.

But "control policies" require by definiton the market to already be cornered by whoever is trying to control it. Without being cornered the market will be cornered?

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#108

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #105

AlexandrB wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this eases the demand for graphics cards somewhat.

That won't happen until the merge to proof of stake, which is supposed to happen early 2022.

I'm theory London could because it reduces the mining reward, but MEV has really thrown a wrench into that plan

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#109

Post by thebean11 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

eric-hu wrote: post #87

lasagnaphil wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you're just an owner. If you're a miner though... that's a whole different story.

Not a miner but I’m curious. What should miners be doing differently?

sudo apt upgrade geth

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#110

Post by etaioinshrdlu » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #106

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #96

If Ethereum can hard fork like this, it stands to reason as well that the 21 Million Bitcoin limit is a lot more changeable than Bitcoin proponents would say. Or the opposite is true - and Ethereum is under heavily centralized control.

Ethereum is so enthusiastic about hard forks (or in ETH speak, upgrades) that they have the difficulty bomb which works like the debt ceiling. It's necessary to do a hard fork/upgrade every so often. Meanwhile bitcoin is so against hard forks/upgrades that they can basically only do soft forks and currently do that by a 90% voting agreement by miners. Bitcoin can not even increase the blocksize, the sure as hell aren…

So the personal beliefs of users decide the technical future of the project. Personal beliefs and culture can change rapidly, or become overshadowed by new users.

It just means that Bitcoin is only unchangeable because of the current whims of current users - nothing fundamental.