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U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#101

Post by NortySpock »

CameronNemo wrote: post #72
Causality1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to think in terms of actual harm. Considering the US has an absurd amount of junk land it can use for landfills, a single use plastic object that has 1/1000 the carbon emissions of the reusable alternative may be the best environmental choice.

The only sustainable way to dispose of plastic is incineration. Otherwise you poison the land and water that flows through the land.

Is turning plastic into CO2 in an incinerator really the best solution for the planet this century?

I'm down for recycling or burial in landfills, but CO2 seems like something we need to minimize this century.

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#102

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #92
eastendguy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a single use plastic object that has 1/1000 the carbon emissions of the reusable alternative may be the best environmental choice. Is there any data that single use stuff (of any kind) creates less carbon emissions? I would expect it to be the other way around, except for some edge cases.

There's plenty of data. For example, producing single-use plastic grocery bags uses such a trivial amount of energy and resources that it almost doesn't matter—thousands and thousands of times less than an equivalent cotton bag. The bigger problem is disposal. If single-use plastics can be safely sequestered in landfills, that's a mostly solved problem, but that isn't always the case.

What about paper bags?

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#103

Post by gambiting »

MattGaiser wrote: post #80
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the US still operate landfills? Some or all EU countries have completely abandoned the practice. So that's just not a harm that matters, unlike some other ones. In any case, it'd be compounding the problem here, and rather bad economics at the same time. Plastics aren't that hard to collect/separate, especially if it's ok to be mixed with paper. They burn readily and, given high temperatures, cleanly, allowing t…

Is incineration of plastic really better for the environment than a landfill? And would the ash not go to a landfill of sorts?

It's "just" carbohydrates - in theory it's no worse than burning oil or gas for heating/electricity, if you make sure everything burns at high enough temperature to burn cleanly and have filters at the exhaust to catch anything that survived the processes.

I'd say it's a positive, we use oil to produce plastics, if that oil is used to produce energy after its plastic form is no longer needed....that's a plus in my book. But maybe on the other hand it's better if it stays in the landfill instead of being burnt and releasing the bound carbon into the atmosphere.

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#104

Post by frosted-flakes »

MattGaiser wrote: post #80
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the US still operate landfills? Some or all EU countries have completely abandoned the practice. So that's just not a harm that matters, unlike some other ones. In any case, it'd be compounding the problem here, and rather bad economics at the same time. Plastics aren't that hard to collect/separate, especially if it's ok to be mixed with paper. They burn readily and, given high temperatures, cleanly, allowing t…

Is incineration of plastic really better for the environment than a landfill? And would the ash not go to a landfill of sorts?

From a C02 perspective, if it's burned cleanly and the energy released is used to generate electricity or heat homes, it's really not much different than a natural gas plant. But I agree with your point.

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#105

Post by handrous »

Swizec wrote: post #83
handrous wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, agreed on small cars being much more nimble and so maybe more safe in practice . I am 100% sure that a lot of SUV and truck buyers are doing so because they perceive them as "winners" in crashes, though. Some also, and relatedly, like the better visibility (but what's that doing to everyone else's visibility? Oh well, who cares). Source: they'll just tell you, it's not a secret. (yes, of course, some people actua…

Ah if your argument was about what they say not what’s real, then yes I agree. My girlfriend says the same thing and refuses to believe me when I present engineering evidence. Luckily we don’t need a car so it’s merely a theoretical debate.

Yeah, "will 'win' if a crash occurs" is very different from "likelihood of death or serious injury while driving this vehicle", though the former is (AFAIK) a lot easier to get stats on. I definitely feel safer, as in less likely to get into a wreck, in a smaller, more nimble car, personally.

Desire to be the crusher rather than the crushee is definitely a reason I've been repeatedly given by people—men and women alike—for why they prefer huge vehicles, though. Enough times that I'd stand by that being a significant motivation for people actually buying them, as far as (partially, but significantly) explaining the level of huge-vehicle sales, whether or not it's rational (I really don't know for sure).

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#106

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

dheera wrote: post #89
jedberg wrote: post #27

This problem won't get fixed without legislation. Single use plastic is cheaper, so of course companies will use that if they can. Most people don't have the income to support "voting with their wallet", and even those who do don't always have the option. IF the best solution out there happens to use single use plastic, you're not going to opt for a worse solution just because it doesn't. And even if one company care…

Also, we really, really need legislation to stop the ridiculousness of over-packaging. The other day I bought some case screws for my PC and they came in a goddamn "nice" foam-padded plastic case. That plastic case was then inside plastic wrap, then some plastic bubble wrap, and then a plastic Amazon mailer. That was completely unnecessary. The screws could have been in a recycled paper packet and thrown into a simpl…

This is a thing that only legislation can change.

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#107

Post by dclowd9901 »

Causality1 wrote: post #41
jedberg wrote: post #27

This problem won't get fixed without legislation. Single use plastic is cheaper, so of course companies will use that if they can. Most people don't have the income to support "voting with their wallet", and even those who do don't always have the option. IF the best solution out there happens to use single use plastic, you're not going to opt for a worse solution just because it doesn't. And even if one company care…

You also have to think in terms of actual harm. Considering the US has an absurd amount of junk land it can use for landfills, a single use plastic object that has 1/1000 the carbon emissions of the reusable alternative may be the best environmental choice.

Sorry, but given the “half life” of a single use plastic item with respect to its usability, isn’t it’s environment cost essentially infinite?

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#108

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

MattGaiser wrote: post #80
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the US still operate landfills? Some or all EU countries have completely abandoned the practice. So that's just not a harm that matters, unlike some other ones. In any case, it'd be compounding the problem here, and rather bad economics at the same time. Plastics aren't that hard to collect/separate, especially if it's ok to be mixed with paper. They burn readily and, given high temperatures, cleanly, allowing t…

Is incineration of plastic really better for the environment than a landfill? And would the ash not go to a landfill of sorts?

A modern plant turns plastic into CO_2, electricity, and, often, residential heat. So, yes, that's preferable. Among the sheer ugliness and wastefulness of landfills, burning at high temperature avoids the toxic intermediates plastics give off when degrading in nature, which landfills struggle to contain.

Ash is, by definition, inert. It is the remaining mass that does not chemically react even under extreme heat. It therefore also does not interact with, for example, the human body. Plastics are all carbon/hydrogen/nitrogen/oxygen, and, to a first approximation, do not leave any ash. In reality they do, but it's extremely little and harmless.

(Physical harms can survive an incinerator, such as material giving off radiation, but those should never be in the trash)

Re: U.S. generates more plastic trash than any other nation, report finds (2020)

#109

Post by toiletfuneral »

gruez wrote: post #45
arodyginc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't cause any real harm to nature without help from corps. But they can, by just setting up an oil drill leaking into the ocean.

But they wouldn't be setting up oil drills if there wasn't consumer demand.

Consumers don’t demand oil, they just need to get their kids to school. Capital has decided the most profitable way is with oil.
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