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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#101

Post by inglor_cz »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

EU is primarily an economic bloc and economic interests will carry the day any time, or at least 99 per cent of the time.

Orbán has integrated Hungarian industry deep into German supply chains and milks this fact as much as he can.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#103

Post by rorroe53 »

Hokusai wrote: post #66
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are tribal by nature. They will get into fights because their neighbour supports the "wrong" sports club, and you can extend that up to any level. Within a country there's city vs city, city vs countryside, and above country level there's EU vs US, or "the west" vs "the east". People group together with others that share certain cultural values. Ever since borders, passports and standard languages have been th…

> People are tribal by nature. Maybe, but what "tribe" are you part of is completely fluid. Your tribe can be extremely inclusive or exclusive. > Grand unification of humanity is a good ideal, one we should work towards, but it's not something that will be possible within our lifetimes. And it is quite of inevitable as communication and travel becomes cheaper. > I don't want a European superstate because I disagree w…

I would argue that a tribe at least need some kind of a common identity to remain strong, which by nature excludes it from people who lack that identity. An extremely inclusive tribe probably won't be a strong one with a sense of community. An example could be citizenship - we may not relate that much with someone just because he happens to live in the same country, compared to him being also our neighbour or colleague.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#104

Post by trasz »

dogma1138 wrote: post #34
trasz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they don't. Please don't spread polish government's propaganda.

Except they do https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-prepares-legal-action-aga... Overall the EU has about the same number of procedures open against Germany as they do against Poland, both are pretty high on the list Germany is #5 Poland is #4.

Except they don't; there's no similarities between those cases other than the courts being involved. The German case has nothing to do with the government openly ignoring its own constitution.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#105

Post by roenxi »

Hokusai wrote: post #60
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society.

I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how rational people might have ended up here.

I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. People get radicalised when it becomes obvious that politics as usual is not going to work out well for them. There are cases where the cause is lost and there is an intransigent radical group. Usually there is a long lead up to that of a group who is systemically not having their needs met.

It is totally correct that hate leads to win-lose deals. That seems like a very reasonable option to people if the alternative loving approach is a win-lose deal but with the winners and losers reversed.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#106

Post by antman »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

Orban was actively supported by the EU center-right wing parties. Do not assume morality, no one was angry they were in fact joking about it. Actions are reserved for countries with left wing governments. Funniest moment, if it wasn't so tragic for hungary:

https://youtu.be/1hl83Jpd_OI

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#107

Post by reader_mode »

_hzrk wrote: post #95
reader_mode wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it doesn't matter how big the bubble is - you saw what happened with Brexit (and it got validated by EU handling of COVID crisis), now imagine what happens when the only option to leave is succession/civil war. There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland). You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work. There are going to be a lot of crisis scenarios for…

What is wrong with the EU handling of COVID crisis? We have vaccinated more people than the US and there was no major breakout since summer 2020. In constrast with the UK where restrictions have been draconic.

EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever (overriding some countries who tried to acquire it individually and would have gotten it faster).

Measures were not dictated by EU, each country decided it's own policy.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#108

Post by inglor_cz »

scotty79 wrote: post #78
jeroenhd wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were thin provisions against member states getting out of hand, but they became useless the second Poland conspired with Hungary. I'm not sure if I would've liked en EU with stricter punitive measures over its member states before all this, but it's clear that the measures to prevent situations like these have all failed.

I'm not sure if conspired is the right word. Poland just has very strong sympathy for Hungary as a country and its people. Poland has nothing to do with Orban and wants nothing to do with Orban. Unfortunately we have our own populists that like Orban wants to remodel our country to be easier for them to rule as they please. And results are similar as with Orban in Hungary and threats to that from EU are the same so c…

"Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki."

(Pole and Hungarian — two brothers, good for saber and for glass.)

Some countries in the EU have better relations than others. Czechs and Slovaks, the three Baltic nations, and Poland and Hungary. Things must get really bad before they will stop having each other's back on the international scene.

This is a historical and diplomatic fact that must be taken into account when conflicts arise.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#109

Post by throwaway4good »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

What do you want the EU to do? Kick Hungary out?

EU offers a lot to the Hungarian people in terms of travel, freedom of business, employment etc. In 10 years Orban likely will be gone. In the long run the liberal values of Europe will prevail.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#110

Post by cannabis_sam »

jsbdk wrote: post #67
dessant wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People voting themselves right to the edge of a totalitarian regime does not make that criticism any less legitimate.

For many people, any political change that is not a move towards an even more liberal view of the world is automatically authoritarianism.

Far more people have an apoplectic fit at anything that can even vaguely be described as “liberal”..
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