European Citizen's Initiative for UBI • Hacker News Board

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#101

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #69

I would really like to see a real world UBI experiment. For example, implement UBI on two small communities. To counter act the impacts of potential inflation the experiment would need to occur for about 5 years because inflation follows changes to cash flow with a tail of about 9 to 12 months. You would need two communities to test whether isolation has an effect such that one community is geographically isolated fr…

Unless you can isolate all supply chains, small experiments like this would be misleading.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#102

Post by nemexis » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #69

I would really like to see a real world UBI experiment. For example, implement UBI on two small communities. To counter act the impacts of potential inflation the experiment would need to occur for about 5 years because inflation follows changes to cash flow with a tail of about 9 to 12 months. You would need two communities to test whether isolation has an effect such that one community is geographically isolated fr…

it is happening in Spain right now for 850.000 households

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#103

Post by j-pb » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #33

j-pb wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own. (Thats the libertarian argument when it comes to everything else privatized, e.g. roads, no?)

>If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own So crypto? Besides, it's not really an opt-out because you're still obligated to pay taxes, and network effects make it very hard for you to actually opt out.

It's almost as if cetain endeavours make more sense when they're done collectively, and socially. If only there was some form of common institution where everybody would chime in with their labour, money, and votes to ensure the benefit, wellbeing and freedom of everybody.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#104

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

axiosgunnar wrote: post #99

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of movement in the EU is conditional on you contributing to the economy; if you move just for the benefits, you will be kicked out (in theory)

What about asylum seekers and war refugees?

Not citizens, they don't have any freedom of movement to start with.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#105

Post by andyana » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #78

andyana wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to ridicule. Can you explain why such a policy doesn't work? I must have skipped that day at school.

There was no intent to ridicule. The answer is that the policy is (1) unsustainable, not unlike a Ponzi scheme, and also (2) even prior to its inevitable collapse, such a policy distorts investment choices and thus makes society as a whole increasingly poorer. Note that there are similar policies that can be more sensible. For example, you can tax wealth and use the proceeds to gradually pay off some of the national…

Its not like a Ponzi scheme, though. Nobody is getting rich from such a policy.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#106

Post by slg » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #100

slg wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is considered "wartime stuff"? Because the US has been preparing for, engaging in, or recovering from war for basically the entire history of the country including today as we are currently engaged in the longest war in US history.

Obviously that's referring to WW2, when the peak marginal income tax rate was temporarily raised to 94%. That was unsustainable because, absent a worldwide violent conflict, the highest income people will just emigrate to lower tax countries. All of our wars since WW2 have been wars of choice. The survival of our nation hasn't been at stake.

So what about when the marginal rate was over 60% in the 1930s or when it stayed at 70% into the 1980s?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#107

Post by nradov » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #22

the-dude wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to rebut his comment, tell us how it would work ( including where the money would come from ). Your comment is as lazy.

The money comes from taxing citizens, assets, and corporations, colloquially known as “productivity and wealth”. I’m not European, so it would be rude of me to speak authoritatively on the quality of life Europeans want for each other, but I’ll take a crack at it. A UBI should be an inflation indexed amount that allows for enough food, clothing, and shelter for a dignified life. Not extravagant, but not USSR communis…

And how much would that cost? Be sure to include inflationary effects in your calculation.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#108

Post by knorker » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #94

knorker wrote: post #68

Where do I sign against this? This is just FIRE without the money. Did you read the actual proposal? They explicitly want to give a middle class life to everyone, with zero obligation from the individual. This is complete insanity. Kids will make zero plans to use school to make themselves useful. Kids are idiots (past me included), and if they knew they had the option to do nothing productive, then that's what a ver…

Relax, it's a petition. Anyone can sign a petition. The very idea that people think a petition is how to achieve UBI means that it will not be achieved. This is a way of feeding illusions to people who want to live in illusion, of catering to people who think complaining and wishing and imagineering unicorns and money raining down from the sky will bring said unicorns and money to them. And so the petition provides a…

I know it's a petition. But it has some of the same problems that a "like" button has, if there's no "dislike".

But I also like your cynical take on petitions. :-)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#109

Post by nradov » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #48

zozbot234 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no inherent right to live in Munich, whilst there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment. UBI is about securing the latter, not the former - and doing it at the lowest possible cost.

Yes, there is a natural right to live where you're at home.

So if at some point I have a home in, let's say Beverly Hills, then I have a natural right to live there for the rest of my life?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#110

Post by anoncake » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #109

anoncake wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a natural right to live where you're at home.

So if at some point I have a home in, let's say Beverly Hills, then I have a natural right to live there for the rest of my life?

Possibly.