Why My Father Hated India • Hacker News Board

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#101

Post by justincormack » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:34 PM UTC

ajays wrote: post #98

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

"Why the difference?" That's an interesting question. My view is: cultures which are quick to forget the past find it easy to move on. Cultures which cling to their history, find it harder to forgive-and-forget. Expanding on that: you have a limited amount of bandwidth in terms of attention. If your gaze is on the past, it's much harder to move forward; sort-of like it's hard to drive a car forward by looking at the…

Not sure Europe fits that, looks back at the past but forgives a lot...

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#102

Post by seank » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:10 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

  The robb'd that smiles steals something from the thief; 
  He robs himself that spends a bootless grief

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#103

Post by null_para » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #95

I'm torn about this. India is a much more pluralistic society, and Pakistan is a failed state. But one of the points made early on in the article makes it seem as if the Partition was entirely Pakistan's idea, and the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who died were all innocent Hindus being slaughtered at the hands of murderous Muslims. "But violence erupted, and it quickly became clear that in the new home…

Who says there are no extremists in Hinduism? Every religion has its fair share.

And its true our neighbor is a failed state and made everything terrible. Given a choice about living in India or any of our neighbors, everyone will choose India. Because we are pluralistic society where every religion is respected, which is not true about our neighbor!

And this article doesn't appeal India's self conception, this article speaks reality!

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#104

Post by rrrazdan » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:31 PM UTC

jkic47 wrote: post #9

The article was unexpectedly heart wrenching to read. India takes its very name from the Indus valley that lies in Pakistan, while the most famous example of Islamic architecture is the Taj Mahal in India. It is sad watching the two countries' governments waste time, energy and lives in a conflict that is essentially at a stalemate.

Its not very clear if a hindu is a person who lived beyond the indus valley or indus is the river that demarcates the border of the hindu dominion. What I am trying to say is that, its still not clear if indus derives from the word for hindus or the word hindu is derived from the word indus.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#105

Post by anxrn » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:33 PM UTC

known wrote: post #53

indian_m wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not resist, creating a throw away account, just for replying to a topic, which is very close to my heart. About me: I am a liberal in world view, but a practicing Muslim. And not nationalistic, but love India and what it represents. Brother, your note is well thought out and well meaning. The idea of a "West India" is very novel. And it appeals to me. But at the same time, I would like to give a sense to you of…

Patriotism/Pakistan/Muslims are the tools/tricks used by the Forward caste to manipulate & use 80% Indians viz BC/SC/ST/Minority communities.

Interesting new claim, but irrelevant to the OP. I'd suggest you put your thoughts together in one cogent reply rather than randomly trolling comments all over this page.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#106

Post by anxrn » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:53 PM UTC

This article is timely, in light of (yet another) terrorist attack on Mumbai by allegedly Islamic militants. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim that this attack is only the latest in a long bloody series of consequences of Partition.

The history of armed communal militancy, both Hindu and Muslim, began with the Kashmir movement in the late 80's; this itself was a side-effect of Partition. This was the first time communal tension took on a decidedly dark tone with armed militants entering the picture. Since then, things have only become worse, with the Pakistan establishment actively supporting and arming anti-India militants and Hindu nationalists in India attempting to derail any possibility of reconciliation by repeated acts of religious intolerance. The current situation vis-a-vis Mumbai is quite pathetic, with politicians falling over each other to get a quote out; and the people of Mumbai developing a horrible sense of resigned apathy, touted regularly as 'resilience'.

What is the solution? I don't know. (War, of course, is guaranteed to always be the wrong answer). A reasonable answer, as always, is economics. If the economies of both countries improve, the resulting improved education and decrease in poverty might provide a solution. India seems to be on the right track here; Pakistan, not so much.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#107

Post by jeffdavis » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

bluedanieru wrote: post #93

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reas…

What about when the strategy of the aggressors is explicitly to hold on for long enough that they can use exactly this argument to keep what they've appropriated from their victims?

I'm not sure what your point is, exactly. How does being mad about it help?

If you have some plan to undo the injustice, that's one thing. But if you are suffering for several generations in a futile attempt to undo the injustice, perhaps it's time to give up and pursue some other goals.

Aside: in the case of land disputes, how did the "victims" come about the land in the first place? Even if they were truly the first humans there, does that give them some divine right to it? And what about nomads?

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#108

Post by idiopathic » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:23 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #65

ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if yo…

Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reas…

I do not agree with you, but regardless, the example you gave - South Africa - proves the point of the person you were replying to, i.e. they "won", so it is easier for them to forget. Not to take anything away from the extraordinary sacrifices of the native South Africans, but at the end of the day, they got to rule their land again, while the native Americans - and the Palestinian - never got to.

PS this is separate from the issue of whether the land belongs to native americans, native africans, or palestinians, I just mean that getting what you were demanding to be yours makes it easier to forgive previous wrongs.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#109

Post by jodrellblank » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:01 AM UTC

known wrote: post #76

carbocation wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some empirical measure of "the degree to which someone should actually be trusted," and if so, are the racially diverse societies less trustful than they should be, or are the racially homogeneous societies moreso than they should be?

I believe Trust but verify is the best alternative.

I don't quite see how this is different from "say you trust, but act as if you don't", aka "don't trust, but lie about it".

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#110

Post by lotharbot » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:52 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

> Why the difference?

Religion or religious history can account for at least some of the difference.

A lot of religions explicitly teach and emphasize forgiveness, even for grave injustices [0]. When people have an attitude that says "forgiveness is required", this can have a lasting and widespread influence. Nations with a strong history in such teachings, even if they are not particularly religious now, may retain that attitude toward forgiveness.

[0] A friend of mine wrote, after his sister was murdered, that he had no option but to forgive, that regardless of his emotions, his theology required it. http://darrow.faithweb.com/murder.htm