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Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

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Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#101

Post by maxcan »

crow_bow wrote: post #48
maxcan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that I agree with you, but if I had to steelman the argument against Eng Res it would be that since pay and promotion seems to follow percentage increments year to year, if you start at a lower point than someone else, you are going to be consistently behind them. So, having this program essentially creates a second class of engineer at google, predominantly URMs, who will be given lower pay and lower…

Made an HN account to respond to this. I was in the Eng Res program, and that's not how it worked. When you converted to being a regular SWE, they gave you a BIG pay bump -- comparable to a new-grad starting salary, but rather higher than average. My comp the year after Eng Res was higher by 20-40% than my friends who started at Google right out of school.

Thanks for clarifying. My thinking above was speculative and it appears even my steel man point was pretty weak.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#102

Post by sokoloff »

MikeUt wrote: post #29
Imnimo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I'm saying is that your statistic does not disprove the allegation that Google's hiring processes might favor white workers. You're making an apples-to-oranges comparison, and drawing a conclusion that isn't demonstrated by the data. I'm also not saying that these numbers prove that Google does favor white workers. Only that they are not sufficient to disprove the idea.

The choice of hiring pool is part of the hiring process. Expanding that pool to other countries is itself an act of disfavor to US workers.

Google serves the world as their customers. It seems to me that having a preponderance of US-based employees that's wildly out of proportion to their customer (or revenue) base is still heavily in favor of US workers.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#103

Post by username90 »

badlucklottery wrote: post #18
b20000 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ way for people from unique backgrounds to enter into the software engineering field with less stringent interview requirements” - sounds like discrimination and should be illegal. meanwhile, people in their 40s are dealing with leetcode BS to get a reasonable position with that sort of compensation even though they have an extensive track record.

>sounds like discrimination and should be illegal IME the "unique backgrounds" are "doesn't have a CS degree or a couple years of experience at a big software shop".

"Unique Backgrounds" meant women or lgtb or non-asian non-white. They often came from top schools, so that didn't really matter. It is way easier to get into Google via this program so some lied about being gay to get in.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#104

Post by s1artibartfast »

concordDance wrote: post #86
JorkJork wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "James demore event" was a guy arguing that some of his coworkers were less-than-qualified because they were women. This is wrong and actual misogyny, and does not get a pass because he framed it as a debate.

> The "James demore event" was a guy arguing that some of his coworkers were less-than-qualified because they were women. That does not match my recollection. Did you read his memo or just second hand reports of it?

I read it and it didn't say this. It said that on average, data sows women in society have different aptitudes and interest in than men, so it is unreasonable to expect equal representation in swe at google.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#105

Post by joejerryronnie »

junon wrote: post #92
sydthrowaway wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refreshers stacking + stock appreciation, I'd guess.

I didn't take it to mean stock appreciation, as pay directly means salary where I'm from.

They are talking about total comp which is usually base salary + bonus + stock (RSUs). As the person above mentioned, 50% or more of that $500-600K is most likely made up of stacked stock grants. Even if you sell your RSUs right away, a grant typically vests over 4 years. In the current market, that makes older grants much more valuable based on stock appreciation.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#106

Post by psyc »

concordDance wrote: post #86
JorkJork wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "James demore event" was a guy arguing that some of his coworkers were less-than-qualified because they were women. This is wrong and actual misogyny, and does not get a pass because he framed it as a debate.

> The "James demore event" was a guy arguing that some of his coworkers were less-than-qualified because they were women. That does not match my recollection. Did you read his memo or just second hand reports of it?

I have almost never seen so many people so motivated to misrepresent a memo.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#107

Post by MikeUt »

sokoloff wrote: post #102
MikeUt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice of hiring pool is part of the hiring process. Expanding that pool to other countries is itself an act of disfavor to US workers.

Google serves the world as their customers. It seems to me that having a preponderance of US-based employees that's wildly out of proportion to their customer (or revenue) base is still heavily in favor of US workers.

Many large companies serve the world (Xiaomi, Hikvision, Hitachi, Samsung, Mitsubishi..) while their employees in their home countries are overwhelmingly native. So if international customer bases are the norm, but only Google (or US companies) have significant international hiring, that effectively disfavors US workers.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#108

Post by desertedisland »

Manuel_D wrote: post #4

It seems like this engineering residency program is essentially an extended internship, which converts to a full time role if the worker does well. Google searches say residents are paid ~$95k a year. This is by no means bad pay for entry level work. I'm really struggling to see the injustice of this program. It seems to me that axing it only leaves the people who used this role as a stepping stone to reach a full ti…

I once went out with a nurse in the UK who worked in palliative (end of life) care. On a daily basis she was responsible for life-changing decisions concerning medications; she had to comfort the dying and tell bereaved people that their relatives had died (frequently ending up in tears herself); she had to give bed baths and clean up human waste daily. She had to undertake continuous training and assessment with her career at risk if she failed; she did not know more than a week in advance what shifts she would be working which on any given day could start at 6am or 9pm (and go through to 4am the next day).

For all of this she was paid £25,000 (USD 35,000) / year.

The injustice is that software engineers and the tech sector in general are being so insanely rewarded as most of the rest of society stagnates and living standards fall (I say this as an insanely rewarded software engineer).

This will not end well.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#109

Post by qq4 »

desertedisland wrote: post #108
Manuel_D wrote: post #4

It seems like this engineering residency program is essentially an extended internship, which converts to a full time role if the worker does well. Google searches say residents are paid ~$95k a year. This is by no means bad pay for entry level work. I'm really struggling to see the injustice of this program. It seems to me that axing it only leaves the people who used this role as a stepping stone to reach a full ti…

I once went out with a nurse in the UK who worked in palliative (end of life) care. On a daily basis she was responsible for life-changing decisions concerning medications; she had to comfort the dying and tell bereaved people that their relatives had died (frequently ending up in tears herself); she had to give bed baths and clean up human waste daily. She had to undertake continuous training and assessment with her…

Software engineers are rewarded what the market demands, not some prize because they're seen as better for humanity than nurses. Some would argue the field of nursing has a lower bar to entry than software development.

Re: Google drops engineering residency after protests over ‘inequities’

#110

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

Google234 wrote: post #94
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, Google have 100,000 employees. They can't all be Mensa level IQ.

Actually, they could :p. What’s 2% of 9 billion?

But they definitely aren't. And realistically, Google hire most of their people in the US, so it would be 300mn rather than 7.9bn.

Like come on, I have met enough Googlers over the years to recognise that they are not all geniuses. They're all very competent at what they do, but that's not the same thing at all.

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