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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#101

Post by bostonsre »

rodgerd wrote: post #94
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

> However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, Trans women have been able to compete for years in Olympic level sport, and they haven't wiped the floor with cis women. I fail to see evidence of the problem - I see a lot more evidence of it being a culture war and TERF talking point. It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport.…

What percentage of the population are Olympians? And what percentage of the population are trans? Being openly trans is more accepted in lots of the world now, but not everywhere. I'm not sure we have enough evidence to say whether or not trans people could have an advantage in some Olympic sports for some genders. Either side of the argument seems plausible to me and it will be incredibly difficult for everyone to agree to one stance when there are so many intangible parts to this argument.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#102

Post by [deleted] »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

[deleted]

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#103

Post by rantwasp »

woodruffw wrote: post #98
rodgerd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, Trans women have been able to compete for years in Olympic level sport, and they haven't wiped the floor with cis women. I fail to see evidence of the problem - I see a lot more evidence of it being a culture war and TERF talking point. It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport.…

> It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport. If we think that certain sorts of genetic quirks are unfair in women's sport, why do we allow them in men's? I appreciate that you’ve said this so concisely and clearly. The Olympics are, overwhelmingly, a show of extraordinary human abilities. Singling out transwomen for scrutiny and prejudice…

here is a thought experiment for you: no more genders in sports. at all. everyone competes under the same rules. we bother with quirks like gender? i mean, we want equality right? everyone competes under the same rules /s

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#104

Post by acituan »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary.

I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#105

Post by monstreums »

Zababa wrote: post #90
whatshisface wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be better to have hormone classes in sports the way boxing has weight classes. You could have Mike Tyson class all the way through Betty White class, and as a side benefit you'd be able to put women's sports teams in with appropriately matched men. As another side benefit a lot of people who were simply born with the wrong stuff to compete could rise to the top of their class by hard work. Since there's not…

Have classes for everything, this way everyone is in their own special class and everyone is a world champion. This way everyone will be happy right? /s

Have classes for nothing, this way we can ignore those emaciated wannabes like Mayweather and Pacquiao and focus our attentions on the one true world champion of boxing, the man who has the bulk to back it. Classes are only there to give awards to inferior athletes for no reason right? /s

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#106

Post by rantwasp »

hypnoscripto wrote: post #92

If this is an issue for all MTF weightlifters, would it be reasonable to disqualify someone only if they had previously competed at the same level as a male?

i don’t think you need to have competed before to have a huge advantage induced by hormones that were normally biologically there. The real question is: where do we draw the line? if a female athlete injects herself with hormones that give her an unfair advantage should this be considered cheating and be grounds for disqualification?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#107

Post by woodruffw »

rantwasp wrote: post #103
woodruffw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport. If we think that certain sorts of genetic quirks are unfair in women's sport, why do we allow them in men's? I appreciate that you’ve said this so concisely and clearly. The Olympics are, overwhelmingly, a show of extraordinary human abilities. Singling out transwomen for scrutiny and prejudice…

here is a thought experiment for you: no more genders in sports. at all. everyone competes under the same rules. we bother with quirks like gender? i mean, we want equality right? everyone competes under the same rules /s

Your snideness is noted, but this is precisely the stoic mindset: athleticism is most virtuously practiced when we only compare current selves to our best possible versions of ourselves.

We can’t change anything about how others are; we can only better ourselves. Telling transwomen that they can’t perform athletic excellence on their own terms is myopic and inconsistent with our own praise for factors outside of our control. Worry less about them, and more about yourself.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#108

Post by Zababa »

rodgerd wrote: post #94
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

> However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, Trans women have been able to compete for years in Olympic level sport, and they haven't wiped the floor with cis women. I fail to see evidence of the problem - I see a lot more evidence of it being a culture war and TERF talking point. It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport.…

> It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport. If we think that certain sorts of genetic quirks are unfair in women's sport, why do we allow them in men's?

These are not the same thing. Michael Phelps dominated the sport as a whole, males and females. A genetic quirk to be the best of the world vs a genetic quirk to be a big fish in a small pond (with all respect to females powerlifters, but males just have better records) is not the same at all.

I think a better comparison is one made in the article, to steroids. Steroids are just testosterone after all. Imagine someone put steroids in the food of a powerlifter for 20 years (I'm using this metaphor because I don't want to insinuate that the powerlifter did it on purpose). Do you think it would be fair to let them compete? Stopping them from competing is unfair to them, but allowing them is unfair to all other powerlifters.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#109

Post by tiahura »

rodgerd wrote: post #94
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

> However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, Trans women have been able to compete for years in Olympic level sport, and they haven't wiped the floor with cis women. I fail to see evidence of the problem - I see a lot more evidence of it being a culture war and TERF talking point. It also doesn't really line up with the fact that we fawn over genetic quirks that let Michael Phelps dominate his sport.…

It’s not a quirk that makes it unfair for them to compete in women’s sports, it’s the fact that they’re not women.

If I’m a 240lb judoka, it would be unfair for me to compete in the 160lb weight class just because I feel thin on the inside.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#110

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #102
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

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