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After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

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Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#101

Post by UglyToad »

the_economist wrote: post #30

Counterpoint: The war on drugs has been progressively ramped down since the late 90s. NYTimes wrote a long story about how during the feds quit using tactics such as convicted drug dealers to flip on their bosses, etc. We aren't putting as many drug dealers in jail and we aren't putting many drug users in jail. What you get is an epic rise in opioid deaths over the past 30 years and chaos on the streets of our cities…

Stats would certainly suggest the police focused on putting the wrong drug dealers in jail:

"In 2019, an estimated 10.1 million people aged 12 or older misused opioids in the past year. Specifically, 9.7 million people misused prescription pain relievers and 745,000 people used heroin."[0]

"From 1999–2019, nearly 500,000 people died from an overdose involving any opioid, including prescription and illicit opioids. This rise in opioid overdose deaths can be outlined in three distinct waves.

The first wave began with increased prescribing of opioids in the 1990s, with overdose deaths involving prescription opioids (natural and semi-synthetic opioids and methadone) increasing since at least 1999"[1]

So anyone who believes jail is a deterrent and wants to improve public health should probably be advocating for locking up more doctors, pharmaceutical company reps, shareholders and owners.

[0]: https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/opioid-crisis... [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#102

Post by genericone »

lettergram wrote: post #66

If you look at violent crime over the last 50 years it has steadily decreased. I think it’s reasonable to see a correlation. It’s possible decriminalizing could lead to a huge wave in crimes as people try to pay for their fix. That being said, I’m pro-liberty. I feel all drugs should be accessible

Just wondering, whats your take on the Opium Wars between Britain and China?

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#103

Post by bun_at_work »

banannaise wrote: post #62
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> large groups of people that the government wants to marginalize Who does the government want to marginalize? I thought the government (and the rest of the world, really) was all about equality and inclusion as of late.

> I thought the government (and the rest of the world, really) was all about equality and inclusion as of late. They're certainly all about talking about it. They don't really take a lot of actions to back it up.

> They don't really take a lot of actions to back it up.

Is this why more groups have been added to the list of protected classes? Is this why our current administration is one of the most diverse to ever exist?

I get the twitter outrage is fun, but when you look at data, our government has become more and more about equality and inclusion in meaningful ways. The US government isn't perfect, but it can't be perfect, there will always be room to grow. It does take time, but looking at data and trends shows equity ticking up over time. Lets have more nuanced views.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#104

Post by swiley »

errantspark wrote: post #85

Can we talk for a second how absurdly good a user experience the text site is? It's 9kb over the wire, the whole thing is one request, it does everything it needs to do to get me the article and it happens instantly and without waste. The full site is 88 requests, takes 5 seconds to complete, transfers over 300x more data and brings me no additional value. The article doesn't even begin on the first screen, I have to…

The content is really only there to convince you to load the analytics framework.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#105

Post by asdff »

tyingq wrote: post #72
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Created a lot of jobs in the industry of arresting and detaining humans. What portion of those arrested + detained are the type of people we want in society/civilization?

>What portion of those arrested + detained are the type of people we want in society/civilization? Check a list of countries by rate of incarceration[1]. Then ask yourself if it's likely that the US, El Salvador, Turkmenistan, Palau and Rwanda are the grouping that have it right. That's the top 5, in order, all at 511+ per 100k. For comparison, Australia is 160, England is 130, Canada is 104, France is at 93, etc. [1…

Part of that is a side effect of poor public health policy in the U.S., where mentally ill and addicted either end up in jail or in a tent on the street instead of in a treatment center or an asylum like these other first world countries.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#106

Post by tetranomiga »

lettergram wrote: post #66

If you look at violent crime over the last 50 years it has steadily decreased. I think it’s reasonable to see a correlation. It’s possible decriminalizing could lead to a huge wave in crimes as people try to pay for their fix. That being said, I’m pro-liberty. I feel all drugs should be accessible

> I think it’s reasonable to see a correlation.

That's not reasonable at all. Forensic science and surveillance technology has made gigantic bounds in the past 50 years, as has almost every other aspect of crime fighting. We've busted mafias, dispersed organized crime syndicates (you know, the REAL bad guys) and made education more widespread than ever. It's gotten a lot harder to do serious IRL crime undetected (cyber crime is a whole other story). Giving a bunch of young latinos and african americans horrible mandatory minimums in lieu of addiction treatment has very arguably contributed to slowing down the decrease in violent crimes.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#107

Post by vkou »

tetranomiga wrote: post #23

> On Tuesday, two House Democrats introduced legislation that would decriminalize all drugs in the U.S., shifting the national response to a public health model. The measure appears to have zero chance of passage. If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US, I don't know what is. I don't know what your political ideology has to be to think the War on Drugs is a good thing, after all the money was…

> If that isn't just the perfect description of politics in the US

Yes, but not in the way that you say.

Political change happens step by tiny step. You have to hammer the same point for decades to get somewhere. You hammer it by winning elections, by having better candidates win your primaries, by getting the news media, large corporations, and celebrities to virtue signal, by rallies, by protests, by sabotaging the system from within.

No single one of these things moves the needle on its own, but push on all of them, and your grandchildren may have a chance to live in a better world.

And yes, anywhere between a third to half the country will dig their heels in, and fight you on it, every step on the way on it.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#108

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

dcolkitt wrote: post #32
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do we need to do next that would have the biggest effect, decriminalize cocaine/crack cocaine?

Legal and purity regulated heroin would have by far the biggest impact, because of the scourge of fentanyl deaths. If I had to choose between legal cannabis and legal heroin, I’d choose the latter on utilitarian grounds. (Although obviously I support both wholeheartedly.)

I definitely wouldn't support the legalization of heroin. We already have alternatives(kratom, suboxone) that are legal and have far less abuse potential.

Not all drugs are the same, we shouldn't act like they are.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#109

Post by vlowther »

camjohnson26 wrote: post #47
dcolkitt wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal and purity regulated heroin would have by far the biggest impact, because of the scourge of fentanyl deaths. If I had to choose between legal cannabis and legal heroin, I’d choose the latter on utilitarian grounds. (Although obviously I support both wholeheartedly.)

Given how addictive heroin is how do people supporting decriminalization suggest dealing with hard core addicts that can’t afford the drug? Giving it away for free in a clinic, hospitalizing hardcore users, letting legal dealers take on the risks directly?

Legalize it and let "hardcore" heroin addicts get a prescription. It is expensive due to it being illegal and the willingness of addicts to pay damn near anything, not due to any intrinsic difficulty in manufacturing.

Re: After 50 years of the war on drugs, 'what good is it doing for us?'

#110

Post by asdff »

lettergram wrote: post #66

If you look at violent crime over the last 50 years it has steadily decreased. I think it’s reasonable to see a correlation. It’s possible decriminalizing could lead to a huge wave in crimes as people try to pay for their fix. That being said, I’m pro-liberty. I feel all drugs should be accessible

Crime rates correlate pretty damn well to leaded gasoline usage and legalized abortion, too.
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