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Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

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Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#101
post #72
post #3

The hypothesis never mentioned in the post, is i think that apple fears being kicked out of China for promoting cantonese or regional languages, going against the will of the CCP to make Mandarin the only official chineese language.

Probably true. Half of the teens in the region dont speak the language anymore. So CCP is admittedly quite effective at it. Although Cantonese Voice recognition still works. And somehow Apple Arcade still not available in HK and Mainland China? Edit: Actually this brings back memory. About twenty+ years ago I made an English to Cantonese Translation with Romanization Input Method on Windows and later on Mac using Van…

So basically in 50 years Cantonese will largely live on in its disapora, much like the forms of Sicillian and Napolitano and the hundreds of other endagered languages you can find in NYC

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#102
Jyutping was not taught in school, most definitely not the case when I studied primary school in Colonial HK. Wasn't the case when I went back and worked a few years, watching little cousins type their school work with something other than Jyutping. So I'm not even sure how much uptake a jyutping keyboard there would be.

For me, as someone who don't type Chinese enough that I'd struggle badly to use an IME based on strokes, I actually use a pinyin keyboard, because: a) pinyin can be found as first class citizen on any OS; b) for someone like me, who speaks Cantonese, and could butcher Mandarin enough to order food, and have no formal education in either pinyin or jyutping, I find it a lot easier for me to guess in pinyin than in jyutping. Most of the Cantonese jyutping (or "cantonese pinyin" keyboards) have a specific transliteration of Cantonese sounds to the English alphabet in a way that I can't grasp easily. The only exception was the Google Cantonese Pinyin IME, which was decently good at taking various transliteration that someone might try, and return a list of reasonable words. But it has since been discontinued, I couldn't find install it. To expand to why there's an inconsistency with transliterating Cantonese sounds... It's not taught in a standardize, formal manner in school, and you can see that with the author's name here, 阿擇. He has Chaaak, which to me is a transliteration pretty far off from the actual pronunciation. http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/scripts/wordsearch.php?leve... suggests "zaak", while I might have attempted "zhak", or "zhaak", or "jak" with the Google Cantonese pinyin IME, with the latter a closer map to the actual sound of the word IMO. I wouldn't associate z with the start of the sound. I've seen some older methods uses "ts" instead. c) for someone like me who struggles with writing / typing the word based on strokes, and find that IMEs like jyutping is not a great choice either, a last resort is for me to look up a word from English, and lo and behold, pinyin is most likely to show along side with a Chinese word when you try to translate from English to Chinese. This provides a convenient way for me to mentally retain a pinyin mapping to the word. Given pinyin is standardized a lot better than jyutping ever has, and the sound to letter mapping is definitely more understood to me, it's far more convenient.

I type Chinese, to my family, in pinyin. It would actually be quite nice have Cantonese word that's accessible via pinyin. It's a fucking mess to try to look up a primarily Cantonese word for someone like me, because again, there wasn't a standardized version taught consistently. And I don't find jyutping taught now.

All this just seems to me a tempest in a fucking teacup. As a matter of practicality, I'd welcome it.

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#103
post #54

> Why would I type my native language with a foreign language keyboard? Would you type Russian with an American keyboard? I don’t know the intricacies of the Chinese languages but typing foreign languages with English keyboard is pretty common worldwide I guess? It certainly is for Indian languages at least.

English keyboards (especially ANSI-style US English keyboards) are very popular, but that's largely a matter of historical availability and (in hacker circles) bad support for the sort of punctuation you use for programming. Flip it on its head then — would you want to type English on a Cyrillic keyboard? Even just sticking to Latin alphabet keyboard layouts, there's plenty of variations that make different keyboards…

Portuguese seems to have held onto a lot of medieval spellings and pronounciations as I notice Spanish and Portuguese use to pronounce Juan/João similiarly at some point in the middle ages, is this accurate?

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#104
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvotes: I don't know what you think the purpose of banning languages is, but in every other instance in history it is about destroying a culture and assimilating it's people's. The one China policy is exactly that.

Promoting uniform official language is a perfectly fine state policy with a tonn of benefits, including costs reduction, economic integration improvements, increased social and workforce mobility. CCP crimes are countless, but existing of such policy is clearly not one of them. Questions could and should be asked in regard to tools and apparatus used in such transition, for example repressions, violence and forced re…

I mean hell, English is Lingua Franca. How many people chatting about this on HN didn't actually have English as the first language? I certainly am not.

I visited Finland, Estonia, Sweden, Denmark and Norway in one go, and never felt that language was a barrier, because everyone can communicate via English.

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#105

> Why would I type my native language with a foreign language keyboard? Would you type Russian with an American keyboard? I don’t know the intricacies of the Chinese languages but typing foreign languages with English keyboard is pretty common worldwide I guess? It certainly is for Indian languages at least.

Chinese is different from every other language I've seen. The written language shares meaning, but with different pronunciation. Mandarin uses pinyin as its romanisation, where Cantonese uses jyutping. Duck[1], for example, has different pronounciations (Cantonese has aap3, Mandarin uses ya1). If you read a menu, the character will be the same, but it'll be pronounced differently. This article is asking why pinyin in…

Cantonese do not use jyutping per se. Let me qualify that statement.

Pinyin is taught in school alongside Mandarin in China [1]. Heck, when I learnt Mandarin as a kid in HK, pinyin was also used

Jyutping was certainly not taught in school, wasn't the case when I was a kid, and didn't seem to be the case when I worked in Hong Kong for a few years and hung out with kid cousins who's got school work.

Pinyin is the romanization of Mandarin. Jyutping is a romanization of Cantonese, one that's not adopted uniformly and consistently.

[1] https://www.quora.com/Is-Pinyin-taught-in-China-or-is-it-jus...

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#106
post #90

yau mou yan taai dak ming lei duen yeh Hope that keyboard supports this kind of input. That's what comes to my mind for informal phonetic input of Cantonese.

tai dak ming. gau ging hai ng hai jyutping, or ng ji.

taai duc ming. gao ging hai ng hai jyutping, or ng ji.

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#107

There are important nuances that make Apple's decision less radical, and make the author's decision more radical than what the average Westerner and young Chinese will perceive, whose notion of language and society is greatly influenced by European linguistic nationalism. For example, observe that top-level commenter gaudat is writing in a romanization that is not Jyutping, which the author proposes. The romanization…

Thank you. It's actually a sane take on the issue that isn't more about politics than the actual matter of a Cantonese speaker trying to type Chinese on a computer.

And thank you for pointing gaudat's comment. I've had a response, if anything, two version of the same response, which I think a typical Cantonese speaker should know what I'm saying. Back in the day, Google's "Cantonese pinyin" IME should be able to work with the kind of romanization and produce actual words.

The absolute key was a standard that's taught in a cirriculum. Pinyin is a standard that's taught in mainland schools (and arguably in HK schools teaching Mandarin).

Jyutping is not taught in school, and I'd wager that an average Cantonese speaker would find some of jyutping's romanization to be baffling. It wasn't taught when I was in school in Colonial Hong Kong, and I'm pretty sure that's not the case right now with school aged children in SAR Hong Kong.

Cantonese as a form of IME isn't destroyed by Apple or CCP, but rather by a lack of coordination to standardize to a single form taught as a curriculum.

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#108
post #65

> Why would I type my native language with a foreign language keyboard? Would you type Russian with an American keyboard? Yes, I would, and I have been doing this all my life when no Russian layout is available. This is called transliteration, and I would argue most Russian speaking tech users used it at least once in their life.

This is probably a bad example. The problem with typing pinyin instead of jyutping is that you must type a very different set of latin characters to get the result you want.

And the problem with jyutping is that it's not a standard romanization taught to Hong Kongers. Wasn't the case for sure when I was in school in Colonial Hong Kong. Pretty sure not the case in SAR Hong Kong.

Some of the romanization of Cantonese sounds are baffling. It's a bit like watching English speakers struggle to pronounce the Q sound in Qing (e.g. Qing dynasty).

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#109
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvotes: I don't know what you think the purpose of banning languages is, but in every other instance in history it is about destroying a culture and assimilating it's people's. The one China policy is exactly that.

Promoting uniform official language is a perfectly fine state policy with a tonn of benefits, including costs reduction, economic integration improvements, increased social and workforce mobility. CCP crimes are countless, but existing of such policy is clearly not one of them. Questions could and should be asked in regard to tools and apparatus used in such transition, for example repressions, violence and forced re…

It's perfectly fine if it's your language.

How would you like it if someone suddenly said you can't speak English anymore?

Re: Apple’s new keyboard feature in iOS 15 is insult to Cantonese speaking community

#110
post #103
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English keyboards (especially ANSI-style US English keyboards) are very popular, but that's largely a matter of historical availability and (in hacker circles) bad support for the sort of punctuation you use for programming. Flip it on its head then — would you want to type English on a Cyrillic keyboard? Even just sticking to Latin alphabet keyboard layouts, there's plenty of variations that make different keyboards…

Portuguese seems to have held onto a lot of medieval spellings and pronounciations as I notice Spanish and Portuguese use to pronounce Juan/João similiarly at some point in the middle ages, is this accurate?

I'm not super familiar with that particular bit of language history, but AIUI nasal vowels/diphthongs are just weird. The way we both pronounce and spell them seems to have evolved a fair bit. Joam and Joaõ are both obsolete spellings of the name, so I can only imagine that the spelling was closer to Spanish before and we've diverged more than they have.
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