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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#101

Post by cblconfederate »

dharmaturtle wrote: post #35

PG has a related essay: Why Startups Condense in America http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html He actually has several essays on how to try to create a Silicon Valley in other geographic areas, but this seemed the most relevant. tldr: 1. The US Allows Immigration. 2. The US Is a Rich Country. 3. The US Is Not (Yet) a Police State. 4. American Universities Are Better. 5. You Can Fire People in America. 6. In America…

I don't think any of those matter. America has distribution and is unapologetica about marketing and people heavily hustling and pushing their product. EU countries have so far tended to place obstacles instead because of mentality.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#102

Post by mediascreen »

ElViajero wrote: post #22
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

>In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. False. Sweden is in the top 10 competitive nations in the world. And it is because it has a relaxing lifestyle, support for children and parents, etc. If desperate people was more innovative or productive, the list of successful USA entrepreneurs would not be fi…

I think it is very hard to say if it is because if or in spite of its policies that Sweden has been somewhat successful.

And I would say that going from the world's highest tax rates (% of GDP) to the world's fourth highest rate does not make Sweden neo-liberal. We have also had a Social Democrat prime minister since 2014 and a government that relies on support from the former Communist party, so we are not quite a neo-liberal utopia yet.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#103

Post by varjag »

DrBazza wrote: post #94
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #61

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, NEVER in my 30+ years as a user of computer networks or communication programs I have seen the "better software" win. It has always been the most marketing, the most shady ethics, or anything else that lead to the strongest network effect.

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, Europe is at a permanent disadvantage with language. You either target your local market in your local language, or you do English first. If you do English first, your market isn't even in your home country. Even culturally England and the USA (and AUS/NZ) are a bit…

Skype.

And really, i18n is a minor issue.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#104

Post by MangoCoffee »

cblconfederate wrote: post #93
MangoCoffee wrote: post #85

EU is not one market. its 27 markets with different language, history, culture, preferences...etc. is it even worth the time and efforts?

It is one market for google, facebook, apple etc. They all succeeded and there's no reason a successful EU company wouldn't become european and essentially global. But for this to happen u have to have companies that grow

but google, facebook, apple...etc. already huge in US with vast amount of resources before they enter foreign market. a start up in US/China have one big market for them to grow domestically and gain enough resources before entering foreign market.

lets say you are a small German start up. is German big enough to grow and gain enough resources before you enter say Estonia?

edit: isn't Rocket Internet business model is copying successful US company for Europe before the US company have enough resources to enter?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#105

Post by Scarblac »

noisy_boy wrote: post #100

Am I the only one who thinks this is not a problem but just how things should be in general? Why should people be pushed to work themselves to death due to societal/financial pressure? If the work culture in Europe provides less stressful life and better work-life balance, barring those who are career driven/ambitious/enjoy the associated challenges, it should be perfectly ok to embrace the former without being guilt…

> Why should people be pushed to work themselves to death due to societal/financial pressure?

The article isn't about that at all?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#106

Post by BlargMcLarg »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #12
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

As another European, I'd rather say the problem is in execution. On the flip side, having too much importance on a permanent contract creates incentives for other overheated markets to require a permanent contract before being able to continue the transaction (under the guise of "risk reduction"). See renting in the Netherlands. Additionally, employers have absolutely no qualms using this status to their advantage anyway. It just means playing the market a little differently, like making a 2 month leave notice mandatory. This doesn't consider the fact many people in markets much worse for employees than IT, these employees end up in situations where they cycle between companies since none of them will give a permanent contract anyway, or these companies try their worst to circumvent the law.

Ultimately, it still comes down to execution, laws, the state of a market and personal preferences. Both forms can be toxic.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#107

Post by thiago_fm »

eldaisfish wrote: post #54
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoil…

People will take my phrasing to their preferred way, I was aware of it when I wrote it. It's the internet.

I'd need to be a great philosopher and writer, to write a boring book with the same opinion that wouldn't hurt them. Unfortunately, I am none of those two. Those who want to take it in the wrong way will and I'm ok with that.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#108

Post by Scarblac »

sdevonoes wrote: post #89

> For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer, in others you need to setup a sole proprietorship,…

> > > For one, we lack the imagination and vision to launch something without knowing how it might eventually make money

> I don't think there is lack of imagination. The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company.

I don't think that is true for the type of company that is described by the line you're replying to. Starting a company is not that hard. Starting a company without even knowing what its eventual business model will be, purely banking on growth for growth's sake, that requires a vast amount of investment with very little guarantees of a return. And that is hard to get in Europe! Much harder than merely starting a company is. I have been part of one such startup for a short time years ago, and I thought it was a complete scam, so unused was I to that type of company. I've never seen any since.

> In some countries you have to pay every month some amount of money if you want to be a freelancer,

Yes, but freelancing isn't the topic.

However, I have a feeling that companies that just want to grow big and are unclear on what their business model will be when they are, are not exactly working on the most important problems. So maybe it's not all bad for Europe.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#109

Post by gspr »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
gspr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European, I do think he hits several marks correctly. But I don't at all understand point 10. If anything, it's been my experience that the US is more focused on people having "the right" education for the job. Could anyone elaborate on what he might possibly mean? (Also, I think point 4 is very field-specific. While the US may have a few institutions that are universally recognized as excellent, there are also…

> If anything, it's been my experience that the US is more focused on people having "the right" education for the job. What are you thinking of here? Big US companies like Google will let you get a high-level job with no college education whatsoever. Most traditional European companies would not consider doing that. > While the US may have a few institutions that are universally recognized as excellent "a few institu…

> What are you thinking of here? Big US companies like Google will let you get a high-level job with no college education whatsoever. Most traditional European companies would not consider doing that.

But Google isn't a "traditional US company" either. So I don't think that comparison holds.

> "a few institutions"? The US absolutely dominates the top universities. You have to go down to the 40s to find your first EU institution.

Good point. Is should not have used the word "few". But my point still holds: the overall excellence of the university (which is admittedly stellar in the US) doesn't matter much if the university happens to be magnificent and world-leading in exactly your field. This is part of the reason why such university rankings are a bit silly. If I'm in (making stuff up here) biochemistry and my European university has a world-leading lab for that, what do I care whether an equivalent US university can boast a magnificent English and aerospace engineering department?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#110

Post by thrower123 »

jan_Inkepa wrote: post #88
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google vs. Yahoo, Ask Jeeves etc. After it was basically the winner it brought in marketing, shady ethics and everything else to keep growing.

Just to be clear, you're listing Google as a counterexample, as a piece of software that was good rather than just marketed as such, right? [ I would accept it as a counterexample. ]

Perhaps people do not remember what using search engines in the 90s was like; statistically, there are a huge number of current software engineers who never did, and a largish number who were not even born when Google Search launched.
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