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I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

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Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#101
post #32

If you've ever been on the other end of the pipe for hiring you'll understand the need for filtering. The alternative is to never list jobs and hire through networks, which has other problems.

I've never been on the other side of things, but it's always fascinated me that so many people who have say things like this. It's hard for me to fathom that such a large proportion of candidates are terrible.

Why is that hard to see? With a lot of simplification about "good" and "bad" candidates...

It's the natural outcome of there being a very small group of bad candidates who apply for a lot of jobs, and a very large group of good candidates who don't apply for jobs very often. What if there's only 50 bad candidates in a particular region, but they all apply for every posted job opening? That's a lot of chaff to get through on every single job posting.

Things aren't that simple for a lot of reasons, but the basic idea holds - you don't need a huge number of people applying for jobs they're clearly unsuited for in order for those people to add up to a huge portion of applicants for any particular job opening.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author is talking about pretty large, well-known companies (e.g., FAANG -- see his first point). Many people applying to these well-known companies are auto-filtered by resume software, which artificially decreases supply. Small and mid-size companies have a different problem: people haven't heard of them and don't know to apply. My company is in this situation. We have a good culture, I think, and pay ve…

Out of curiosity what do you define as being paid well? What country and region or state and what’s the compensation? I had a recruiter try to lure me for a $130K “senior” role on the east coast in the US. I earn several times that.

NYC senior engineers typically earn $150k-$250k in salary.

Unless you want to be a lifeless drone for a HFT fund. But then living expenses aren't that high in NYC, compared to Bay area.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#103
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this sounds more like a crazy anecdote to me. I once had a new CTO come in at a place I’d been working at for about a year and a half, and he refused to interview any candidates that weren’t Muslim (as existing staff were replaced 1 at a time). While this is extremely fucked up, I would be surprised if I could find another tech company in the state where this happened. Cursing at someone for having experience in…

This sounds like a made up anecdote.

Believe me, it felt made up as it was happening.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#104
post #32

If you've ever been on the other end of the pipe for hiring you'll understand the need for filtering. The alternative is to never list jobs and hire through networks, which has other problems.

I've never been on the other side of things, but it's always fascinated me that so many people who have say things like this. It's hard for me to fathom that such a large proportion of candidates are terrible.

Upwards of 90% of applicants for many roles - talking about external postings, it's usually only 50% for internal - have clearly (in my experience) not even actually read the job posting, let alone have an understanding of what the job would entail or any of the requisite experience to be successful in it.

Many of the remaining 10% have read enough they'll try to fake the requisite experience or understanding of it, but on the job would fail almost immediately (and not in a coachable 'oh yeah, we use bit x instead of y here', but in a 'have no idea how to use the calendar App we use, despite claiming years of hands on experience). Only a couple % of applicants for a public posting will have the actual experience and ability to do the job.

And that is before we start talking about fit with others/ability to work in the culture effectively, and other soft skills.

I've had candidates apply for senior Java developer positions that couldn't write out the most basic class structure on a white board while claiming 10 years of experience (like class Foo {}), candidates applying for engineering managing jobs that struggled with basic arithmetic, candidates applying for executive admin jobs that had no idea how to process an inbox at all (except to sort everything with a billion filters - except I needed them to, you know, actually figure out what needed to happen and sort out the junk, not categorize the junk for me to sort through), and a million other weird things like that. I had a lawyer who wasn't a lawyer once. That one I filed a criminal complaint against.

Sometimes it may be brain lock, but in many cases I think it was fluffery and 'fake it till you make it' thinking.

A large part of being a successful company is figuring out how to filter out the frauds/incompetents/won't actually fit or work outs, from the people who can get things done and can work with everyone who is already there without making a giant mess. It's surprisingly hard. Most don't do a good job at it.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#106
post #32

If you've ever been on the other end of the pipe for hiring you'll understand the need for filtering. The alternative is to never list jobs and hire through networks, which has other problems.

I've never been on the other side of things, but it's always fascinated me that so many people who have say things like this. It's hard for me to fathom that such a large proportion of candidates are terrible.

Not surprising to me, It's a field that pays an insane amount of money for such low barriers to entry (notably, it does not require expensive credentials). And there's swaths of stories out there about people going from 0-100 in a matter of months.

Additionally, this may be a popular opinions, but there are a lot of places where you don't have to be particularly competent where you can earn more money than you could otherwise.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#107
post #73

> The general rudeness is ridiculous. I once had an interviewer ask me if I was a wizard with GO, C++, Rust, and C over the phone. Then when I said I had some experience with rust, he immediately cursed at me and hung up. > This experience is fairly common. Is it? I've done a fair bit of interviewing on both sides of the table, and can say with complete honesty I've never heard a curse said in anger in any of them. I…

I once, 30 minutes into what was supposed to be a 1 or 2 hour phone interview, had an engineer at Google cut me off in the middle of their standard "write code in a Google Doc" with a "oh, I have a meeting I have to run to, good work we'll get back to you." I assume it was not, in fact, good work, as I did not progress to the next interview. I think a phrase like "typical" would be inaccurate; possibly "common" as we…

I had a Google research scientist telling me during an interview that they don't like their job and don't recommend it. At a different occasion, Google's VP showed up 15 minutes late, asked one question, and stopped paying attention for the rest of the interview too busy with their laptop.

I understand that these are probably outliers but I will not be reapplying soon.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#108
post #78

Tech companies complaining about developer shortages sounds completely tone deaf to me: During this pandemic, society was carried entirely by "essential workers", especially in health care. Those jobs are notoriously underpaid. Those are the real shortages. In tech we do not have a shortage of developers but an excess of dispensable jobs.

How else is an underpayment problem going to get fixed but by demanding better? This is more of a “both and” situation in that there is not one “real” problem but several problems which are not part of a zero-sum game.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#109

> The general rudeness is ridiculous. I once had an interviewer ask me if I was a wizard with GO, C++, Rust, and C over the phone. Then when I said I had some experience with rust, he immediately cursed at me and hung up. > This experience is fairly common. Is it? I've done a fair bit of interviewing on both sides of the table, and can say with complete honesty I've never heard a curse said in anger in any of them. I…

I interviewed at a small company just for an internship several years back. It was an iOS position, but again, internship/jr. level. I said I wasn't an expert but wanted to learn and had spent some time developing some basic iOS apps on my own.

Guy proceeds to seriously ask me about low-level memory management, i.e. ARC (Automatic Reference Counting) vs. other methods (this was roughly 2013 or so).

I attempted to give an answer from what I knew just reading the docs, as I hadn't written complex-enough code for it to matter. Mentioned I didn't have first-hand experience using it, so that's my frame of reference.

He basically laughed and went off to tell the recruiter it wasn't worth having me finish my interview loop.

I understand for an experienced iOS engineer at the time, those would've been entirely valid questions and it'd be reasonable to expect enough time spent using them that a quality answer could be given.

But I was honest in saying I hadn't gone that far and this was for an internship.

Of course that was also when I realized that in the real world, there are small companies who tend to want FTE-level of productivity out of young engineers/interns for that pay level who aren't experienced enough to know it.

Edit: Coincidentally that same day I reached out over Twitter to the CEO of a company I admired, also in SF, and asked if I could just tour the office since I was in the area.

That CEO spent his lunch hour with me, had a good laugh about the interview story, and worked with one of his teams and recruiters to get me in the schedule to interview. Got an internship there the right way, spent two years interning, went full time for 3.5 years, and that was the beginning of my full-time career.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#110
Hard to take this seriously with all the straw men and broad generalizations.

Reality check: there has never been a hotter seller's market for software engineering talent. The fact that you have not landed a job does not mean that supply is not short in general. Rather than blowing your stack at some recruiter who you heard on a podcast interview, you might want to reflect on yourself and how you might be coming off in job interviews.

As far as low pay goes, yeah, welcome to the labor market. It's easy to write a blog post about how companies need to pay more, but hard to reconcile the reality that if they don't have FAANG cash flows, "market rate" for developers may not be viable, regardless of management's good intentions or lack thereof.

And with regard to bad interviews, remember interviewers are individuals, with skillsets all over the map. Once you get more senior it gets even more frustrating to be judged by someone who has a fraction of your experience. Trust me when I say there is no value in dwelling on this or getting your undies in a bunch. Suck it up and figure out how to play the game (read CtCI, practice on interviewing.io, ask for feedback) and land the job, then do the best work you can every day. Angry screeds will not change anything about the industry and will not help you.

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