Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

I'm sorry you feel that way. To be clear, I am not calling you racist (whatever that means exactly) and I am not calling that sentence racist, etc. But I have said racist things and held racist perspectives in my life; I'm human; I probably still do, unwittingly. I take that seriously - it hurts people, maybe more than anything else in humanity. (To make clear my position: I'll be damned if the scourge continues, on anything like its current scale, past my generation.) Also, sometimes I say things that unwittingly contribute to racism. If you did one of those things - I'm not saying you did - it wouldn't make you the devil. It's not about judging you; I assume you don't want to do these things either.

This is my personal point of view in more detail. From the GGP:

> The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears.

IMHO that sentence makes a joke of the article's points about racism, and calls them "boring and trite". Also, importantly it's an expression of feelings, not facts and reasoning.

I'm saying it fits a general pattern: Very often IME, when racism is mentioned, people express skepticism in the same manner. The manner is an essential factor: It implies (and the GGP sentence says almost explicitly), 'these people can be ignored; I won't give them the time of day'. The power imbalance, that the vulnerable can be ignored, is at the core of racism; it allows racism to continue and be perpetuated; it puts the vulnerable under constant threat. Whether intended or not, I think the sentence repeats and reinforces that.

To dramatize it, imagine a city council hearing: Someone says they are the victim of ongoing violence and threats from their neighbors, and gives a reasoned, factual account. The city council member doesn't ask detailed questions and explore the issue and possible solutions, they say, 'something something threats - how boring and trite'. It's a clear message that nobody need care and the attacks can continue.

>> IMHO that sentence makes a joke of the article's points about racism, and calls them "boring and trite". Also, importantly it's an expression of feelings, not facts and reasoning.

I understand what you are saying but I think it's an overgeneralisation. My comment said that the way the article frames the subject is boring and trite, not that the racism it is trying to point to doesn't really exist. I agree it does.

I don't want to have to give ideological credentials here because I don't think that's healthy in any situation, but of course I think that the existence of racism in the music industry, as anywhere is a problem. But everyone who tries to point out the problem doesn't do an equally good job and I've sure seen people do it very clumsily. I think the article is all over the place and doesn't quite hit the spot when it comes to sensitising the reader to the issue.

Edit: to clarify, in the following sentence:

>> The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears

The phrase: "that sounds a bit boring and trite" has "a very strenuous effort" as a subject, not "a point about something something racism". I find the effort boring and trite, not the point.

I admit that this is not the only interpretation of my comment, but, again, I think it is the strongest interpretation - and it's certainly my intended interpretation.

Edit again: And the "something something racism" is meant to express my frustration at the author's inability to pin down the subject they're trying to discuss, not to deny racism exists. I mean, I read a huge article that kept meandering and never really getting to the point. I wanted to read more about what Dylan said and why, what were his experiences that formed his opinions. But I read a bloated piece stitching together bits and pieces of rock and roll history that may have been related, or not. I just didn't like the article.

I've posted this before but it belongs here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnyCJDYONSU#t=57

I wouldn't have thought the article was very good, and the title is neither an accurate representation of what Dylan said, nor really what the article is about. But this thread is surprisingly pretty good!

As a gloss on what Dylan is saying about race and the music business, this clip where David Bowie turns the tables on an MTV interviewer in 1983 is worth watching, in a high-tension sort of way. He's pretty impressive as an investigative journalist: cool as steel, conceding nothing, and charming even as he drives the knife in deeper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3i53rjh-PA#t=11m3s

(Edit: As a performer, at least,) the man ages well. (If you watch to the very end, he makes the same point as Dylan: "yeah but let's face it, somebody laid the ground rules down in the beginning".)

You're right, of course, although surely anyone who isn't ignorant knows that rock n roll was black music, and in any case Elvis (and countless others all the way—I would say down, but that's mean—to Cliff Richard and Pat Boone) were busy at that before the Beatles.

By the way, if anyone is interested in this who doesn't know the incredible story of the Detroit proto-punk band Death, it's sort of a glimpse into a parallel reality in which all this didn't happen (but it did happen, so they were forgotten for 30 years). The missing black Ramones, Stooges, Clash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwehxN2ipCU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAZ9R2t5Jd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIsE8TyNEL4

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/arts/music/15rubi.html?_r... ("Their musicianship tightened when their mother allowed them to replace their bedroom furniture with mikes and amps as long as they practiced for three hours every afternoon")

This interview is so great, everyone reading this thread should just watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vru_cgNnNv4#t=59m50s