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What nobody says about startup moms

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Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#101

Post by jakelazaroff »

whatshisface wrote: post #96
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. >In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. Another way to look at this is that when your youth is rapidly diminishing you really care about how you spend it but once that ship has sailed you rationalize whatever path you took.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

The only thing it can leave you with that truly matters is fulfillment. It couldn't be any less clear which of the three — if any — is worse off.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#102

Post by LatteLazy »

parineum wrote: post #86

It strikes me that there is some kind of cognitive dissonance that prevents people from recognizing their time as a commodity. I understand and support the push to normalize women in the workplace in leadership positions but there seems to be a failure to recognize the cost. I think the "traditional" family roles of mother stays home and father works are outdated but I think the train goes off the tracks when people…

I did an exercise once where I budgeted time for a full month. It forced me to know/accept/realise up-front I couldn't do at least 40% of the things I wanted. There simply wasn't time. That was really unpleasant even though I knew I would never have actually managed to do that extra 40%. I haven't repeated the exercise because although it was useful, it was simply too unpleasant. I trade some inefficiency and disappointment later for enthusiasm now.

So I'm happily cognitively discontent I guess.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#103

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

I feel the same pressures. Like I'm a failure for not wanting what it feels like so much of silicon valley thinks all of silicon valley wants. But nope, I'm supposed to be passionate about work. This sort of toxic work culture seems worse in startups especially.

> Everyone knows kids consume your time. But what people without kids may not realize is the extent to which people with kids want their time to be consumed by them. And, on the whole, I’d guess women more so than men.

That last sentence makes me sad in all sorts of ways. It's probably true, but the expectations are self-reinforcing, expecting women to be more family oriented than they might want, and expecting men to me more work oriented than they might want.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#104

Post by mcguire »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #71
alex_young wrote: post #21

Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a disadvantage in the workplace if they become parents. Men, not so much, and largely because of this imbalance, even progressive couples fall into this paradigm. In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when the…

> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I actually disagree, and that's the reason I loved this article so much: it acknowledges that, at the upper end, you do have to choose. Of course, everyone should be able to have a career and also have children, and I agree that there are a lot of things society can do to make this an easier tradeoff. However, should everyone be a…

Well, if you are the CEO of a high growth start up, you really can do what the wealthy have always done: go with the nanny.

Here's a question for you: how many innovations (or whatever else you expect to benefit society from a high-growth startup or whatever) are we missing because people cannot do both?

The weird thing about competitive environments is that above some level, winners and losers seem to be chosen based on everything except the competitive skill.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#105

Post by mcguire »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #67
alex_young wrote: post #21

Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a disadvantage in the workplace if they become parents. Men, not so much, and largely because of this imbalance, even progressive couples fall into this paradigm. In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when the…

'tradeoffs shouldn't exist'

Artificially created trade-offs are harmful.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#106

Post by alex_young »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #71
alex_young wrote: post #21

Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a disadvantage in the workplace if they become parents. Men, not so much, and largely because of this imbalance, even progressive couples fall into this paradigm. In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when the…

> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I actually disagree, and that's the reason I loved this article so much: it acknowledges that, at the upper end, you do have to choose. Of course, everyone should be able to have a career and also have children, and I agree that there are a lot of things society can do to make this an easier tradeoff. However, should everyone be a…

I'm not entirely sure we disagree on the point I was attempting to make.

I didn't say that one should never be allowed to choose between being the CEO or having children at the same time, but I do think it's a societal failure if the choice is between having a career at all and having children, especially if that's a gendered ultimatum.

I may actually disagree with you on the CEO point in another way however -

Who knows, but I suspect some CEOs manage to spend time with their kids and run a successful company. As you say there are tradeoffs in life, and some people choose to have a family and others choose to take up fly fishing or something. It doesn't seem like this necessarily precludes anyone from starting a successful company. Some may even find that parenting gives them the insight they need to be successful in business.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#107

Post by jstanley »

whatshisface wrote: post #96
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. >In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. Another way to look at this is that when your youth is rapidly diminishing you really care about how you spend it but once that ship has sailed you rationalize whatever path you took.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

Which one?

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#108

Post by whatshisface »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #101
whatshisface wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

The only thing it can leave you with that truly matters is fulfillment. It couldn't be any less clear which of the three — if any — is worse off.

I guess it's possible to slip in to the geriatric backward-looking phase of life at 30, finding fulfillment in memories, but that sounds pretty bad to me, to be honest. That's like, 12 good years in your whole life.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#109

Post by bena »

toomuchredbull wrote: post #97

It's also difficult for fathers. I don't know if I buy the "mom's do all the work" line anymore. When I take my kid to soccer practice it's all dads.

I'd have to say it's partly a "grass is greener" kind of thing.

Just like that one person at a job who apparently "does all the the work". At least according to them. To hear them tell it, the entire enterprise would collapse if they weren't holding it together by sheer force of will. But surprisingly, the place operated just fine before they were brought on and it'll operate fine after.

It's just that we get so focused on our contributions that we don't see what others do as contributions. I'm sure the parents who don't take the kids to soccer practice see soccer practice as "time off" to some degree. Sure, you have to drive and what not, but once you're there, you're just sitting around. And blah blah.

I think I may be experiencing this right now. We just bought a house and we've been getting it set up and what not. My wife is an elementary school teacher at the school her son attends. So she's finishing the school year in that district. And since it's an hour and half drive each way, it's easier for her and the kid to stay with her mother.

It's been a steady stream of ordering what we needed, building those things, etc. I've felt like I've not really had any time off. Especially since I'm doing this around work. I'm under the impression my wife has not seen it that way. Either through underestimating build times or just not being aware. I've pointed out things and she's said that she flat out did not notice.

Also, there's a thing the kid likes to do. There's a certain game we play and it's me and him. She can spectate, but the actual play involves me. I'm not 100% into this game for various reasons, but I recognize that it's important to him and it's also important to spend that time with him. It may be a response from my own childhood, but I do not brush off his requests for time lightly. And I don't dictate how we play or socialize either. I leave that mostly up to him. He needs to explore his own creativity and whatnot. I think my wife gets a touch jealous about the ways he favors me in some regards. And it's hard to talk about it, because in my opinion, it's because if she wants to do something else, she'll push it to "later" or she'll try and change the manner in which he plays because it's not "right". Basically, she's trying to define the interaction on her terms, while I allow him to define it on his.

But she probably sees some of the time I spend with him as "time off" whereas I see it as performing not exactly a chore, but not as leisure time either.

But who gets to define work and who gets to define leisure?

So, I have issues with the whole "emotional labor" movement. It reeks of the person I mentioned in the beginning, someone who can only see their own contributions.

Ultimately, it comes down to the question of whether or not something makes your life easier or harder. If it makes your life easier, maybe don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Personally, I think everyone should live truly alone, no roommates, no partners, just them and whatever pets they may have. See what it takes to literally do everything required. I think it would give a lot of people perspective.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#110

Post by gazzini »

feoren wrote: post #89
denimnerd42 wrote: post #60

I don't know if it's fair to classify this as just a mom problem. I'm having the same problems as a Dad.

Yeah, as a busy new dad dipping my toes in the startup world, I was cringing the entire time wondering why they seem to assume this only applies to women.

I quit my startup & picked up a boring, stable job to be a better dad a couple years ago, so I feel this too.

If the article said it’s only hard for moms, then I’d disagree with it... but it doesn’t.

It’s just critiquing the assumption that every mom wants the same thing. These assumptions form social pressures & impact career decisions, and she’s pointing out that you don’t have to struggle with that decision in the way society expects.

Sure, it would have been nice if they acknowledged dads... but given the name of the website, I don’t think we’re the stars of this show, and that’s fine.

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