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Changes at Basecamp

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Re: Changes at Basecamp

#101

Post by toiletfuneral »

DiNovi wrote: post #85

> You shouldn't have to wonder if staying out of it means you're complicit This is a very privileged stance. Stopping dialogue because it makes people queezy just means stopping change from taking hold at their company. One of their 10x engineers is a nazi and got mad, I will bet $10 dollars

A lot of these "keep all politics out of work" stances feel inherently reactionary and could passively ossify some pretty gnarly social issues.

I've been in software for 30 years, I can't imagine management attempting to formalize how racist & sexist it was back when I started. Pretending it's fixed now so we can all just move on is a pretty big yikes from me.

Sorry that it makes people uncomfortable or could get in the way of profits but even though I don't enjoy it either, thats what progress has to feel like.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#102

Post by anm89 »

PascLeRasc wrote: post #73
paxys wrote: post #27

Can there ever be a non-work related conversation between employees that is not a "societal and political discussion"? In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about high housing costs (bunch of us are testing the market right now), property taxes, EV rebates, weed legalization, homeless/drug use problem on the streets. All of this is apparently a fireable offense at Basecamp? People are going to say "obviously st…

A friend of mine is a software engineer in a conservative industry, and their company brought out the same "no politics at work" last summer. Their benefits package has some language specifically referring to only extending health insurance coverage to hetero spouses, and only permitting time off for a new child if the employee gave birth to it, so nothing for adoptions, fathers, or surrogate births. People have been…

Right, this is how it should be. If that is a deal breaker then find a different employer.

Work is not a forum to compete for your personal views. It is a forum to exchange your time for money or equity as per your contract.

If you feel it should be different, make sure you are holding enough equity to set the rules or as I mentioned, find a new job that agrees with you.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#103

Post by swyx »

antidaily wrote: post #47

sam's pissed.

this was very relevant to me and something I didn't know - the employees found out at the same time as the outside world. Jason and DHH seem to not have bothered getting internal consensus first before going ahead with this thing. (confirmed with sam)

live feed of employee reactions https://twitter.com/i/lists/1202647

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#104

Post by paxys »

stephsmithio wrote: post #74
paxys wrote: post #27

Can there ever be a non-work related conversation between employees that is not a "societal and political discussion"? In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about high housing costs (bunch of us are testing the market right now), property taxes, EV rebates, weed legalization, homeless/drug use problem on the streets. All of this is apparently a fireable offense at Basecamp? People are going to say "obviously st…

While I hear the, "But anything could be viewed as societal and political discussion", it's kind of a straw man argument. We all know what types of discourse Jason and David are referring to and they augmented their request with, "But if you make a mistake, it's not the end of the world. Someone will gently remind you of the etiquette, and we'll move on. This isn't some zero-tolerance, max-consequences new policy." F…

If these topics are really that obvious to everyone then they should be written down (because it definitely isn't to me). On the contrary, they are pretty explicit about not allowing ANY discussion "remotely related to politics, advocacy, or society".

Now that I think about it, banning some kinds of political talk (discussing pay disparity, forming a union) is probably illegal.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#105

Post by anm89 »

threatofrain wrote: post #80
meowsnow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the communications on these channels are typically legally discoverable, so it makes sense you don't want to introduce potential vectors for political discrimination in an increasingly remote world. There are plenty of non political topics to cover...Gardening, pets, clothing, home renovation, local music events and festivals, kids, etc. In all the teams I've been on, political topics never came up. It's okay…

What if you want to discuss gay spousal benefits? Or how medical insurance is going to work for gay couples?

Then read your contract. Discussing these things does not change what the contract you signed says. If you don't like it, renegotiate or leave. If your negotiation is an ultimatum on these points you should probably consider it equivalent to deciding to leave in most cases, but maybe if you have enough leverage you will win.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#106

Post by paxys »

anm89 wrote: post #99
paxys wrote: post #27

Can there ever be a non-work related conversation between employees that is not a "societal and political discussion"? In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about high housing costs (bunch of us are testing the market right now), property taxes, EV rebates, weed legalization, homeless/drug use problem on the streets. All of this is apparently a fireable offense at Basecamp? People are going to say "obviously st…

You are actively misinterpreting what they said. a) They explicitly state that employees are allowed to actively discuss these things, just not in group chat. b) They explicitly state that this isn't "some high consequences zero tolerance policy" and that the consequence for violating the rule will be that you are reminded of the rule. It's sad that this is the top comment.

The "not in group chat" part was added later after the backlash. The original version of the post said employees can't talk about it, period.

And the severity of the punishment isn't what is being debated here, but the fact that there can be punishment at all.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#107

Post by mimikatz »

klelatti wrote: post #66

"Employees are free to...speak out on whatever horrible injustices are being perpetrated on this group or that . But that's their business, not ours." So BaseCamp as a company has no view on any horrible injustices as long as they don't hit their bottom line. Really surprised that a firm that is supposed to be great at marketing seems to have taken no account of how a sizeable subset of their customers would react to…

I don't care if the chip maker who runs this computer thinks Global warming is real or not. I don't care if my orange juice company has spoken out about human trafficking. I don't want those companies to take part in those things, but outside that companies should be in general apathetic soulless beings who only care about things that impact them and act in a legal and ethical matter to provide goods I want or don't want. It is in my mind strange that people want Red Solo cups to fight against the big lie of a stolen election. You realize when companies do this it isn't because they CARE, it is because they see the PR benefit vs cost (look at the NBA on Hong Kong vs BLM).

If people demand companies lie to them so they can feel moral about purchasing their products... That is just bizarre.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#109

Post by toomuchtodo »

anm89 wrote: post #105
threatofrain wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you want to discuss gay spousal benefits? Or how medical insurance is going to work for gay couples?

Then read your contract. Discussing these things does not change what the contract you signed says. If you don't like it, renegotiate or leave. If your negotiation is an ultimatum on these points you should probably consider it equivalent to deciding to leave in most cases, but maybe if you have enough leverage you will win.

One might also consider forming a union with your fellow coworkers, and negotiating with management with said union.

As you mentioned, if you have enough leverage, you win. If that's your jam, grab for the crowbar of labor rights. Organizing is federally protected.

Re: Changes at Basecamp

#110

Post by exegete »

SergeAx wrote: post #70
paxys wrote: post #27

Can there ever be a non-work related conversation between employees that is not a "societal and political discussion"? In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about high housing costs (bunch of us are testing the market right now), property taxes, EV rebates, weed legalization, homeless/drug use problem on the streets. All of this is apparently a fireable offense at Basecamp? People are going to say "obviously st…

In the past week I have spoken to coworkers about custom keyboards, sail racing, gym routines and upside of hiring a personal trainer, travel, 3D-printing, I can go on forever. I believe it is fundamentally possible to have an interesting and relaxing conversation with coworkers and not to touch political topics.

What you described is talking about personal interests and activities, and I agree that is the kind of stuff that is easy and fun to talk (and hear) about with others. I’m starting to think many people don’t have personal activities and interests and don’t know what to fill in small talk with other than what they saw on social media or the news.
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