Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly' • Hacker News Board

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#101

Post by kergonath » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #98

username90 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU law already handled the credit card duopoly, should work the same here. The changes didn't propagate to US though.

The Apple Apologist keep saying it is Apple's platform, Apple dictates the rules, if you dont like it go somewhere else. And yet when EU say it is their market their rules, Apple apologist keep saying foul. You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have v…

> You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares.

The monopoly thing is an Americanism and is irrelevant as far as European law is concerned anyway. Companies are tried for anticompetitive behaviour or abuse of a dominant position, neither requires a monopoly or anything close. It is enough to show that the company is dominant in one market, and using that unfairly to advance its position in another market. A company can be dominant with a 60% marketshare, depending on the market.

On the other hand, being a monopoly is perfectly legal as long as it is not used for anticompetitive purposes. Same for oligopolies. There are a lot of markets served by only 2 or 3 companies and that’s fine as long as everyone behaves.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#102

Post by infinityplus1 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #28

015a wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even buy the "security" argument; MacOS is a highly secure operating system, produced by the same company, which has no forced walled-garden App Store. There certainly are exploits and scams which happen; just like on iOS. The argument sounds great in theory, but in practice, it simply doesn't hold water; security & privacy can (and should) (and does) happen at the OS layer, not application distribution.

macOS is definitely less secure than iOS.

If it's less secure, why are they selling it? They claim their policies are to protect consumers. But then they keep launching new Macs with less secure operating systems for general purpose use. Isn't it hypocritical? iOS apps are themselves made using this "less secure" operating system. Won't someone hack your Mac and add malicious code inside your iOS apps? /sarcasm

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#103

Post by kergonath » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #66

I think governments should go after cartels rather than monopolies. Google and Apple combined have a >99% market share for mobile OS/app store market share. They also impose a synchronized 30% fee cut. There is a case to be made for an antitrust behavior from this cartel.

It is very difficult to prosecute though, because convergence is something that happens without collusion. You need to have a smoking gun to convict a group of companies under anti-collusion laws.

Case in point, the 30% fee for digital stores existed before both Apple’s and Google’s stores.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#104

Post by xd455e » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

What happens when an app store distributed via apple store contains apps that have malware? Will apple be able to remove them? The entire news will be of apple iphone has malware and such.

I would like easy sideloading of different ipa stores. So that we can have modded premium apps. Youtube with adblocker and sponsorblock and so many things

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#105

Post by dzonga » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

to the people that have experience designing Operating Systems - how difficult is it to have proper application sandboxing ? If everything is user level sandboxed. app can only access it's data. then apple | google wouldn't need to charge 30% to vet apps. if data is to be shared - it has to be explicit.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#106

Post by joking » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

easton wrote: post #14

superkuh wrote: post #9

Yes, it is a monopoly. You can see the effects in software that doesn't even run on Apple devices. The most recent example is Discord being forced to change their entire platform and software on non-apple OSes just to be allowed to have their software run on Apple's monopoly walled garden.

They weren't forced to do it, they did it so they didn't have to have a 17+ rating in the App Store. And then they decided not to. https://www.theverge.com/tech/2021/4/19/22391675/discord-ios...

has any a browser a +17 rating on the App Store?

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#107

Post by ideamotor » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #91

dilap wrote: post #39

I don't care or know if it counts as a "monopoly" (I guess I can use Android...), but as a consumer and human being, I would love it if governments compelled big companies to act more in the public interest and less in their own. In particular, I would love to be able to install 3rd party app stores and software w/o having to resort to jailbreaks or weird certificate hacks. To me, it seems obvious this would be a net…

So much this. Let's keep our actual utility functions in view. Who cares whether or not it's technically a "monopoly"? It sucks ! Worth remembering that "monopoly" wasn't a bad word until we decided it was in the early 20th century. We can decide other things are bad too.

What? Companies behaving in anticompetitive behavior was considered mostly illegal in ... the U.S.’s inherited common law from the British before the U.S. was even formed. If anything, we’ve become more restrictive in how we define this.

These platform monopolies are absolutely anticompetitive. And it doesn’t need quotes.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#108

Post by unityByFreedom » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #90

unityByFreedom wrote: post #69

Apple is the best at getting consumers to buy software. US govt cracking down on that is shooting themselves in the foot. Google Play is mostly free ad-supported apps with a higher incentive to resell data.

People buy apple phones since they are fine with spending money, so then they spend more money in app stores as well. It has nothing to do with how Apple runs the store.

Noone comes close to their success selling software to consumers. That's because of a legit strategy to unify hardware and software, not anti-competitive behavior.

Software piracy was rampant in the 90s and early 2000s. It's why everything now is subscription or online-only. Apple was hugely successful securing their devices and store to convince people to buy software.

Disrupting Apple for their success here would hurt competition, not help it. Apple provides developers a secure platform that has customers, and it provides consumers with software and hardware they can trust.

Without Apple carrying the torch we would have even more data breaches, less trust, less investment and less innovation.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#109

Post by hpoe » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #39

I don't care or know if it counts as a "monopoly" (I guess I can use Android...), but as a consumer and human being, I would love it if governments compelled big companies to act more in the public interest and less in their own. In particular, I would love to be able to install 3rd party app stores and software w/o having to resort to jailbreaks or weird certificate hacks. To me, it seems obvious this would be a net…

Although I agree with the sentiment I am wary of the government trying to force companies to act in the public interest as I am worried it will end up with the government forcing companies to act in the government's interest masquerading as the public's interest.

Remember you must always ask yourself when the government is given additional power if you would be okay with your worst enemy having that power as in a democratic society that can happen.

Re: Google and Apple attacked on app store 'monopoly'

#110

Post by ksec » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #101

ksec wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Apple Apologist keep saying it is Apple's platform, Apple dictates the rules, if you dont like it go somewhere else. And yet when EU say it is their market their rules, Apple apologist keep saying foul. You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have v…

> You then have half of the discussion about the term "monopoly" which half of them dont understand and refuse to understand. And another half of the discussions about Apple's BS that they took and state they have very small market shares. The monopoly thing is an Americanism and is irrelevant as far as European law is concerned anyway. Companies are tried for anticompetitive behaviour or abuse of a dominant position…

Agree on everything you have said. It is the Anti-Competitive nature that is of concern. I think Benedict Evans puts it best, do other business "Fear" of losing market access because of certain company.