Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

jabberwocking.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 203 posts

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#101

Post by matheusmoreira »

hnhg wrote: post #79
DubiousPusher wrote: post #69

I don't know why there's an article that makes the rounds once a month analogizing bitcoin to some other thing when.. 1 bitcoin is its own thing 2 bitcoin has a clear analog in the form of gold Collectibles are a terrible analogy because 1 they are not fungable and bitcoin is 2 they are not easily converted into currency whereas bitcoin is 3 they carry novelty and bitcoin does not (cryptocurrency may carry some novel…

I'm not an expert but I keep reading that bitcoin isn't fungible. Each bitcoin has a unique ID and public provenance, and that there are other coins that are truly fungible, like Monero - am I way off the mark?

You're spot on. It's possible to trace every wallet a coin passed through. If your coin ever passed a blacklisted address, it's tainted and nobody will accept it. Exchanges are already rejecting deposits containing coins that passed through mixing services.

Monero is fungible because it's private. Every transaction is signed by lots of users and nobody can tell where the coins are actually coming from. There's no way to tell them apart.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#102

Post by rawtxapp »

rapsey wrote: post #94
rawtxapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll start spending it when it's value stabilizes and that won't happen until it either "wins" as in becomes the global reserve currency or "loses" as in becomes worthless. If it were to freeze at it's current price, it would only be able to power a very small economy of 1T$, that's nothing considering it's borderless and digital.

So you will never spend it. What gives currencies relative stability is central banks. It will never become a global reserve currency for the same reason gold is no longer a basis for money. It is better to inflate your way out of problems (print money to bail out key institutions) than to deflate your way out of them (great depression). Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals.

I'm not sure that it's "better", we now have crazy high asset prices, the bubble is bigger than ever, all while the average worker's compensation has stayed relatively stable.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#103

Post by DubiousPusher »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #95
cyphertruck wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacklisting doesn’t change fungibility. It just means some exchanges are refusing to do business with people who believe in privacy. A government can scream and shout but they cannot block a bitcoin transaction.

Fungibility means coins are indistinguishable from each other. Bitcoin does not have this property: the origin of each coin can be traced all the way back to its minting. Governments cannot block transactions but they can stop people from accepting the coins. Money that can't be spent is worthless.

Yes and in some cases that matters. But for most practical purposes, two coins are interchangeable. As in,if you're sending me bitcoin, I don't really care which coin in the wallet you send me.

I could use your argument to say U.S cash is not fungible because each bill has a serial number. And the government occasionally tracks bills with a given number.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#104

Post by pfisch »

dyslexit wrote: post #80
fny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

It has value as a currency on dark markets and possibly for companies paying hackers off to disable ransomware. I can't really think of why people would use it instead of fiat for something like a Tesla though.

Because the long term holders could try to dodge the irs.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#105

Post by the_local_host »

cyphertruck wrote: post #88
matheusmoreira wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not fungable and bitcoin is Bitcoin is not fungible. Bitcoins can be distinguished by their transaction history. Governments are blacklisting addresses and all bitcoins that have passed through them are now tainted. Exchanges already reject deposits containing coins tainted by association with blacklisted individuals or even coin mixing services.

Blacklisting doesn’t change fungibility. It just means some exchanges are refusing to do business with people who believe in privacy. A government can scream and shout but they cannot block a bitcoin transaction.

Blacklisting definitely changes fungibility. Some bitcoins are different than others, because of their history.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#106

Post by cyphertruck »

afarrell wrote: post #84
cyphertruck wrote: post #65

This article is knocking down a squadron of strawmen. First off, bitcoins key attribute is not “privacy” but censorship resistance. It’s why wikileaks has been able to keep operating all these years after being cancelled by the mainstream payments industry. Not to mention many smaller, politically oppressed activist organizations, and much of the marijuana industry. Secondly, the attributes of money are, according to…

> the fiat inflation system which has created all the wealth inequality in much of the world. > The system that lets politicians buy power and escape responsibility for violating rights. Wouldn’t it be more energy-efficient to just go back to golden years before William Jennings Bryan’s 1896 presidential campaign? Can you think of historical examples of dramatic wealth inequality or misuse of political power? As sure…

Your statement about history is probably correct, but I don't agree about energy efficiency. Bitcoin is more energy efficient than gold. Most bitcoin power use is waste power— eg power generated which exceeds instantaneous demand, and bitcoin’s entire power usage is still 1/6th of what is currently thrown away... if bitcoin ever fails to deliver utility beyond its power cost, the network will reduce mining because mining will no longer be profitable.

Cheers!

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#107

Post by pfisch »

fny wrote: post #52
graeme wrote: post #7

The funny thing is that Bitcoin will basically only have value as a collectible as long as substantial numbers of people believe this essay’s argument is false . People want to collect bitcoin at current valuations because they are convinced it will become a currency/store of value of the future and hence rise in value. If everyone suddenly switched to believing “Oh bitcoin doesn’t do anything but it is a fun collect…

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

Now apply that logic to gold.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#108

Post by DubiousPusher »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #101
hnhg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert but I keep reading that bitcoin isn't fungible. Each bitcoin has a unique ID and public provenance, and that there are other coins that are truly fungible, like Monero - am I way off the mark?

You're spot on. It's possible to trace every wallet a coin passed through. If your coin ever passed a blacklisted address, it's tainted and nobody will accept it. Exchanges are already rejecting deposits containing coins that passed through mixing services. Monero is fungible because it's private. Every transaction is signed by lots of users and nobody can tell where the coins are actually coming from. There's no way…

Fungibility implies interchangeability not privacy.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#109

Post by dnautics »

rapsey wrote: post #94
rawtxapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll start spending it when it's value stabilizes and that won't happen until it either "wins" as in becomes the global reserve currency or "loses" as in becomes worthless. If it were to freeze at it's current price, it would only be able to power a very small economy of 1T$, that's nothing considering it's borderless and digital.

So you will never spend it. What gives currencies relative stability is central banks. It will never become a global reserve currency for the same reason gold is no longer a basis for money. It is better to inflate your way out of problems (print money to bail out key institutions) than to deflate your way out of them (great depression). Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals.

> Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals

Inflation sucks for more people than deflation. It causes social strife, environmental destruction through overconsumption, a widening gap between the rich and the poor, more expensive healthcare for lower classes, stress and the need to live on the corporate treadmill, a general inability to identify worthwhile investments versus ponzi schemes because TINA, pushing more people into partial servitude to the economic system by encouraging borrowing.

It's great for the rich, though. Lowered interest rates things like financial games, leveraged trading, and corporate agglomeration become favored. And the devaluing currency pushes average joes to participate in the wall street casino, which is good for CEOs.

It's not the deflation of the great depression that was causing starvation. Remember that during the part of the great depression where people were starving (nobody was starving at the onset), the government was doing things like buying food and burying it on the premise that this would create demand and stimulate prices.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#110

Post by pfisch »

rapsey wrote: post #94
rawtxapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll start spending it when it's value stabilizes and that won't happen until it either "wins" as in becomes the global reserve currency or "loses" as in becomes worthless. If it were to freeze at it's current price, it would only be able to power a very small economy of 1T$, that's nothing considering it's borderless and digital.

So you will never spend it. What gives currencies relative stability is central banks. It will never become a global reserve currency for the same reason gold is no longer a basis for money. It is better to inflate your way out of problems (print money to bail out key institutions) than to deflate your way out of them (great depression). Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals.

Gold still makes up a percentage of global reserves for all major countries.
Post reply on HN