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US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

bbc.co.uk

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Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#101

Post by pbak »

cheph wrote: post #34
DangerousPie wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Novel vaccination - barely month of research. Weeks of evidence and practice. We don't have best practices yet. That is completely untrue. This vaccine has been through several clinical trials for months. We know that there are no side effects that are common enough to be of real concern. The reason we are only seeing this one now is that it is so rare.

> We know that there are no side effects that are common enough to be of real concern How did they establish that there are no long term side effects?

You kind of answer your own question : only time will tell, ironically, and nobody else.

Also, to all those saying "clinical trials have succeeded", I strongly suggest them to read said published trial results and look at _measured_ sample sizes used in the results, not total inoculation numbers.

Applying the precautionary principle, particularly if you are not at risk, is a perfectly reasonable position, IMHO.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#102

Post by pbak »

raverbashing wrote: post #95
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be ridiculous, but it seems necessary if you're managing populations of people: Build a dam, which if it broke would kill hundreds-of-thousands, or let millions die for lack of water? Oh, we'll just over-engineer it, now we can't afford to buy food to keep the people alive long enough to need the dam; or the lead engineering firm embezzles the money and installs dodgy iron. We can't wait around for long term s…

You're blowing the problem out of proportion Deaths by Covid are still much more likely than deaths by the vaccine. Hospitalizations as well, except for the 20-29 cohort https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1379833789334089734

If we are talking death, OK, but what about other issues in the "harm spectrum" in either the case of Covid or Vaccine ?

I mean there's still stuff between "fully healthy" or "deadly dead".

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#103

Post by laplacesdemon48 »

Both the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines use an adenovirus to deliver DNA instead of mRNA wrapped in lipid (like Moderna & Pfizer).

Everywhere I read about the J&J vaccine, I see something like "the DNA vaccine doesn't alter your DNA". Can somebody please clear this up?

As far as I understand, the mRNA just stays in the cytoplasm of the cell and gets used up by the ribosome to create spike proteins. The adenovirus vector used in the J&J (and other vaccines) injects DNA in the cell's nucleus, which seems at odds with the widely circulated "it doesn't change your DNA" statement.

Do people make this claim because the cell displaying spike proteins is basically always eliminated by CD8 killer T cells?

Btw here's a nice high-level summary by the NYT about how all the vaccines work: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19...

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#104

Post by calvano915 »

raverbashing wrote: post #95
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be ridiculous, but it seems necessary if you're managing populations of people: Build a dam, which if it broke would kill hundreds-of-thousands, or let millions die for lack of water? Oh, we'll just over-engineer it, now we can't afford to buy food to keep the people alive long enough to need the dam; or the lead engineering firm embezzles the money and installs dodgy iron. We can't wait around for long term s…

You're blowing the problem out of proportion Deaths by Covid are still much more likely than deaths by the vaccine. Hospitalizations as well, except for the 20-29 cohort https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1379833789334089734

Deaths by COVID implies that those at risk will forego all other options to decrease risk of infection, such as masks, distancing, etc. Those options are opt in the same as a vaccine, though the vaccine is 2x and done.

Nonetheless, just because version 1/2 COVID vaccines are good enough for you does not others should just jump on board when other options exist that can vastly reduce risk of infectionand/or death.

In short, blowing the death problem our of proportion unless the options are only nothing vs vaccine.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#105

Post by pbak »

huffmsa wrote: post #25
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

Six cases in seven million administered doses. One death. Meanwhile, hormonal birth control causes clots in 1/1,000 women. No one blinks an eye. The vaccine hesitancy this engenders is likely gonna kill more than that one person. https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1381936112311148548 > Public health bureaucrats have some weird habits in how they reason under uncertainty and how they communicate to the public. I…

Being obese also causes deep vein thrombosis at a rate of 1/1000, but we're perfectly okay with people eating their way to blood clots.

The difference being that you can't "catch" being obese with a viral infection.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#106

Post by [deleted] »

ceejayoz wrote: post #2

Six cases in seven million administered doses. One death. Meanwhile, hormonal birth control causes clots in 1/1,000 women. No one blinks an eye. The vaccine hesitancy this engenders is likely gonna kill more than that one person. https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1381936112311148548 > Public health bureaucrats have some weird habits in how they reason under uncertainty and how they communicate to the public. I…

[deleted]

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#107

Post by 1337biz »

Eduard wrote: post #12
ceejayoz wrote: post #2

Six cases in seven million administered doses. One death. Meanwhile, hormonal birth control causes clots in 1/1,000 women. No one blinks an eye. The vaccine hesitancy this engenders is likely gonna kill more than that one person. https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1381936112311148548 > Public health bureaucrats have some weird habits in how they reason under uncertainty and how they communicate to the public. I…

This is kneejerk statistics 101 reaction. * Hormonal birth control - years of research. Years of evidence and practice. Knowing what to do when this and that happens. Recommendations for women with known conditions not to take this and that hormonal birth control. * Novel vaccination - barely month of research. Weeks of evidence and practice. We don't have best practices yet. I'm fine with anyone to make a decision o…

It goes even deeper than that. I have seen that meme catch on in so many feminist Twitter and Instagram accounts that it is essential to look at the play here.

The "you woudn't care about women dying" narrative completely derails the essential discussion (aka when do we determine vaccine to be save) by selectively picking facts from a completely unrelated health area to turn it into an activist subject.

It reminds me on the magnet-troll-logic memes, only this one trying to come up with the completely insane narrative: "If you are concerned of a few more people dying because of a vaccine, you hate women."

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#108

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

calvano915 wrote: post #104
raverbashing wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're blowing the problem out of proportion Deaths by Covid are still much more likely than deaths by the vaccine. Hospitalizations as well, except for the 20-29 cohort https://twitter.com/VikiLovesFACS/status/1379833789334089734

Deaths by COVID implies that those at risk will forego all other options to decrease risk of infection, such as masks, distancing, etc. Those options are opt in the same as a vaccine, though the vaccine is 2x and done. Nonetheless, just because version 1/2 COVID vaccines are good enough for you does not others should just jump on board when other options exist that can vastly reduce risk of infectionand/or death. In…

> Deaths by COVID implies that those at risk will forego all other options to decrease risk of infection, such as masks, distancing, etc.

Masks are supposed to protect others from you. Wearing a mask is not meant to help a person who may be at risk decrease his/her own risk of infection.

In any event, now that spring weather is here in the northern hemisphere and the vaccination campaign has given people hope, social-distancing rules are being flaunted in many countries and at-risk populations may find it hard to properly distance when they leave their homes for e.g. basic shopping. So, since the "other options" don’t always work, keeping up the vaccination campaign is very important to reducing infections.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#109

Post by ceejayoz »

laplacesdemon48 wrote: post #103

Both the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines use an adenovirus to deliver DNA instead of mRNA wrapped in lipid (like Moderna & Pfizer). Everywhere I read about the J&J vaccine, I see something like "the DNA vaccine doesn't alter your DNA". Can somebody please clear this up? As far as I understand, the mRNA just stays in the cytoplasm of the cell and gets used up by the ribosome to create spike proteins. The adenovirus vecto…

Being in the nucleus and being integrated into your chromosomes so that they are copied during cell division aren't the same thing.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9160...

> Adenoviruses -- even as they occur in nature -- just do not have the capacity to alter DNA. Unlike retroviruses such as HIV or lentiviruses, wild-type adenoviruses do not carry the enzymatic machinery necessary for integration into the host cell's DNA. That's exactly what makes them good vaccine platforms for infectious diseases, according to Coughlan.

> And, engineered adenoviruses used in vaccines have been further crippled by deleting chunks of their genome so that they cannot replicate, further increasing their safety.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#110

Post by mizzack »

tombert wrote: post #57
School-Cotton wrote: post #20

We’ve completely transformed human civilization in a desperate attempt to slow down the spread of this virus that kills 1 in 200 people, and now we don’t want to use one of the miracle cures because of a literal one in a million chance of issues. People are absolute garbage at thinking about scale.

First, it’s closer to 4 in 200 [1] Second, there’s evidence that even if people don’t die, there can be long term neurological effects [2]. Third, even if we accept your number, 1 in 200 would still be 1.5 million Americans dead, not even considering the rest of the world. I am personally not comfortable doing nothing to stop that number. I agree that being super worried about a 1 in a million blood clot might be sho…

It's absolutely disingenuous to use CFR to drive home a point about absolute deaths rates in a population.

People with asymptomatic infections (which are the majority of them) do not have any reason to get tested, so they do not count as "cases".

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