Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#101

Post by tarquinpussy » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

didgeoridoo wrote: post #86

tarquinpussy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to say it but I think the UK system is better. No closed shops, but if enough of the workplace (50%?) join the union, the employer has to deal with them.

Is that meaningfully different from a vote, then? You get the majority, you get the union. If you’re a recognized union, NLRB says the employer must deal with you.

Well it's not meaningfully different from a vote in that it forces the employer to deal. But it does mean that there are no closed shops, so nobody is forced to join a union just to work in a certain place.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#102

Post by teawrecks » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #10

So, leaving aside why someone would or would not want to join a union, why is this a majority vote? If 49% of a workforce wants to unionize, why can't they?

IANAL but my understand is that it's the difference between the company being allowed to fire those individuals for not doing what is asked of them, and being legally required to negotiate with them.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#103

Post by mrweasel » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #8

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

That's pretty overwhelming too, 71% No. It would be interesting to hear from them why. I think we all have opinions (I certainly do). But I've never worked at amazon so my opinion is low value...

My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, a…

Why would the dues be that high? I only pay $50 per month for my union, and that’s in Denmark with much higher costs.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#104

Post by Kylekramer » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #54

Next round is already called: "BREAKING: @RWDSU says that Amazon illegally interfered in the #BAmazonUnion vote in Bessemer, and the union will be filing unfair labor practice charges with the NLRB." https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690

You can't win the game, work the ref.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#105

Post by pkulak » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

rmah wrote: post #92

Am I the only one who thinks $500/mo seems excessive for union dues? That's $60k/yr in dues for every 10 workers. Does a union really need a full time rep for every 10 or 20 members? If, perhaps, half of that goes to "strike insurance", that would mean $15k/member over 5 years. Which would be enough replace wages(at $15/hr) for six months. Do they really anticipate a six month strike every 5 years?

Holy crap, the dues were really that high? No wonder no one voted for it.

EDIT: $500/year, apparently

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#106

Post by tyingq » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #103

tyingq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, a…

Why would the dues be that high? I only pay $50 per month for my union, and that’s in Denmark with much higher costs.

No idea, but the figure is in many news stories, and I don't see the union disputing it.

The $500 figure seems to have come from the now defunct "doitwithoutdues.com" website that Amazon made. Strangely, it just says $500[1], and not "$500/month". But, "$500/month" is indeed in a lot of news stories[2].

Pretty sad for the union if the true figure is lower, and they failed to get that message out.

Edit: Apparently it is $500/year, though many news stories are saying $500/month.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210223103728/https://www.doitw...

[2] https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+union+vote+%22%24500%...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#107

Post by judge2020 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #89

didgeoridoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there can only be one union per type of worker — you can’t have some warehouse pickers be repped by Union A and others by Union B. The vote isn’t just to unionize, it’s to unionize with a specific union . It’s entirely legitimate to put that to a vote, to ensure employees get to choose their preferred representatives.

In which case the title is anti-union, because it doesn't mention what union and hence is conflating them all with each other.

I didn't get the impression that there is another union vote in the works at that particular facility.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#108

Post by lr4444lr » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #66

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

I like to think this is due to the bad reputation unions have. Digging a two mile tunnel eats half of the state budget? Police refuses to wear body cams? Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Rightly or not, in many people's minds unions are to blame.

I agree, but there are other dimensions to public sector unions that makes them worth keeping around: deterrence of the spoils system in politics, and the legal monopsony the state has on the labor and monopoly on credentialing in many cases.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#109

Post by kadomony » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #81

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

> " ...why you would vote against your own collective interest ... " > " ...Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term... " Why do people call others dumb (and let's not kid ourselves, that's just what these phrases are a cultured, genteel way of saying) and then are surprised when said others don't vote for the causes they believe in? Don't they realize that casting aspersions…

I don't think you'll find many of those Amazon warehouse workers on this site. Also, it's not said with malice, so don't reach for a fight.

Most of these workers slave for long hours. And then they work another job on top of it. And then they wonder why they STILL aren't making enough to pay TODAY's bills. Their mindset is myopic because they live paycheck to paycheck. You tell them they're losing MORE money out of each paycheck, that suddenly makes them worry exponentially more.

I'm friends with people living this dilemma monthly. They don't have the luxury to think what the long-term return on investment is.

And to say they're under-educated isn't calling them dumb. The ones I know are high school dropouts/graduates only. High school doesn't teach you personal finance the way a finance course at a college might introduce you to it. It's just statistical correlation.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#110

Post by judge2020 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

Kylekramer wrote: post #104

sgift wrote: post #54

Next round is already called: "BREAKING: @RWDSU says that Amazon illegally interfered in the #BAmazonUnion vote in Bessemer, and the union will be filing unfair labor practice charges with the NLRB." https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690

You can't win the game, work the ref.

It's fair to ask for the ref to review the play.