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A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

meribold.org

101–110 of 274 posts

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#101
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen pronouns are any different. Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.

The linked blog post says nothing about pronouns specifically, it's making a much broader statement that is clearly nonsense. When you promote putting people on lists, bear in mind that some of us are happy to reciprocate. I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone who thinks "if it offends a trans person, then it is transphobic" is a reasonable maxim.

Did you follow the arguments against RMS?

https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix

"RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns."

And OP said: "Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!"

I'm not commenting on RMS's views about what makes consent. And I am not stepping into that discussion. But calling people something different than what they want to be called, is just dickish.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#102
You see totally different demographics between software design/development and the politics of software.

In this letter I see names that have never done anything significant, yet they feel entitled to correct one of the forefathers of software development.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#103
post #12

> I think a good argument against RMS can be made, but the authors of the letter instead chose to incite as much outrage as possible at the cost of honesty and nuance. My thoughts exactly. I'm not defending RMS but the original letter was very clearly written in the key of "outrage".

> written in the key of "outrage".

I've never seen that turn of phrase before, but I quite like it!

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#104
post #53

> The primary author of the open letter, Molly de Blanc, writes on her personal blog: > > There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable. Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!

In a sphere where we usually choose our names and expect other people to use them, instead of what's written in some official document, I don't see how chosen pronouns are any different. Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called. You might feel the line between innocent mistake and maliciousness has not been crossed. Other people do disagree.

>Honestly, it's not hard to call people what they want to be called.

How does one express what gender neutral pronoun they want to be called without expressing their preferred gendered pronoun?

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#105
post #54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the part I have an issue with, its more the assertion that child pornography "does not hurt anyone".

I'm tired of people with poor reading comprehension and poor adherence to the intent of the writing. You equate this: "Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone" to "child pornography does not hurt anyone". Do you really think those two sentences mean the same thing? Really? This is the reason the following saying is a thing. >Give me six lines written by the most honest man in the world, and I will find enough…

It's not poor reading comprehension. It's poor writing at best.

"Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone" is factually wrong.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#106
post #4

As much as I like rms, I find it very difficult to move past his comments on child pornography[1]. [1] https://stallman.org/notes/2011-mar-jun.html#4_June_2011_(Bo...

Is there anything specific that you disagree with? I personally find his comment totally sensible.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#107
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked blog post says nothing about pronouns specifically, it's making a much broader statement that is clearly nonsense. When you promote putting people on lists, bear in mind that some of us are happy to reciprocate. I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone who thinks "if it offends a trans person, then it is transphobic" is a reasonable maxim.

Did you follow the arguments against RMS? https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix "RMS has spent years on a campaign against using people’s correct pronouns." And OP said: "Ah, postmodernism! Where the words are made up, and intent doesn't matter!" I'm not commenting on RMS's views about what makes consent. And I am not stepping into that discussion. But calling people something different than what they want to be…

The OP was responding to the maxim he quoted, specifically:

> There is no space to argue over whether a comment was transphobic – if it hurt a trans person then it is transphobic and it is unacceptable.

That is a much broader statement - pronouns are only one possible example* of something which might "hurt a trans person".

Stop playing games.

Edit: Other examples are arguments about trans access to women's sports/prisons/shelters/etc., which TERFs may say "hurt females" and are thus misogynistic. Whose hurt wins?

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are taking his arguments out of context. Everything out of context will sound strange.

Because there has been this "out of context" argument used several times in this discussion, and I don't understand it: Can you explain to me how the context of [1] and [4] makes [2] and [3] - "is having that photo is not hurting everyone" - sound different than without the context? "[1] This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. [2] It might be an image of a sexua…

I think that #3 is one of rms’s terribly ineffective and perhaps self-destructive “technically correct” arguments.

I read that he’s intending the extremely literal meaning of “having” as he often takes extremely precise, literal meanings that make his writings more difficult to understand than would otherwise be.

Let me be clear: I’m not in any way supporting child porn, but I can see how rms could hold a view that merely having a specific sequence of bits that can be displayed as a picture does not harm anyone.

Perhaps someone was harmed by the circumstances under which the picture was taken. Perhaps some ex- is harmed by the thought that you might have that photo. Almost surely allowing the purchase or trading of such pictures encourages future harm. There are lots of reasons to oppose child porn, but rms is, for reasons known to him, choosing to argue that, in a very literal sense, the passive having of the bits is not among them.

Context: I’ve read a lot of rms writings and worked for FSF as his typist for 9 hours back around 1990 before I quit. (I wish I’d have been able to do it longer, but it wasn’t worth the $10/hr to listen to rms dictate keystrokes and enter them. I would frustrate him as I was trying to learn what the keystrokes were doing and he just wanted me to type faster. When I told him I was quitting after the third three hour session, he graciously offered that I was just getting fast enough to not be frustrating, that most people quit in session 1 or 2, and he’d make sure FSF sent me the $90 which they did.) I don’t consider myself to have a particular “side” here, but if my minor interactions with him are relevant to anyone, I wanted to disclose them.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#109
> in response someone created a Chrome extension that marks repositories owned by a signatory of this support letter with red text on GitHub

Ok. I think I need this extension for Firefox, to know what software is written by decent people.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I know nothing about the target, but he must be innocent!”

RMS might be a serial killer or pedo but until this is proven by the authorities what a sane person can conclude is that there is no actual evidence for such accusations, just some people with a grudge on RMS remembering 20 years old stories of RMS committing the crime of making them uncomfortable. Or some argue that RMS did no crime but is just not good for PR reasons so we should put someone more cool on the top, s…

Who said RMS is a serial killer or a child abuser? Why do you assume that he is being accused without evidence?
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