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Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

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Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#101

Post by whateveracct »

zemo wrote: post #84
whateveracct wrote: post #10

"Build Consensus" - hah, the words of an org chart climber. I've recently joined a BigCo (as a senior+ engineer), and the culture here isn't building consensus (out of authentic building blocks) - it's a toxic "we must be consensus after every meeting." There's always a "champion" idea (but you can bring a "challenger" idea so people feel heard), there's always a need to "be in alignment" after every 45 min chunk of…

> "Build Consensus" - hah, the words of an org chart climber. ^ the words of a person that builds things that nobody asked for and then gets mad when people don't use them.

i'm doing fine :)

did my fun pejorative phrase offend you?

also - i & millions others just "use" some software service i built years ago at a previous job ;) i have no trouble getting things in production, making and saving money.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#102

Post by sgtnoodle »

alexpetralia wrote: post #63
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #22

Is this not kind of intuitive to people? If you rock up and go, "we're doing this big thing tomorrow and oops sorry we didn't mention it before" of course you're going to encounter more push back. On the other hand, if you get people on your team before doing something then they will trust you and possibly even become advocates!

This is politics! Politics is quite literally the development of consensus (whether it's corporate politics, national politics, etc.). Without consensus (agreement, buy-in), large-scale things do not get done. Politicking - which includes relationship building, framing, vision setting, leadership, debate and empathy, among many other things - is not necessarily intuitive. It is a skill like any other.

I think there's negative connotations about "politics" that people are implying within the context of corporate work environments. Specifically: arbitrary beurocracy, fragile personalities, back-channel communication, ego stroking, chest thumping and back-stabbing.

From a pure textbook definition of politics, yeah there's politics everywhere, and folk need to learn how to interact with coworkers in a healthy, productive manner. For folk going into engineering, I really like competitive student projects as a way to learn those skills.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#103

Post by sgtnoodle »

benlwalker wrote: post #75
kvark wrote: post #65

So this behavior has a name... I'm sick of this nemawashi thing used by people as an instrument (in the context of cross-company working groups). It's not about building consensus together, it's about sneaking your "consensus" into the group by the means of divide-and-conquire. It's very hard to build a solid alternative consensus (or a defense strategy) if all the opposing points have been voiced independently, and…

I think, as with anything, it can be used in bad faith. By taking advantage of the fact that many of the stakeholders are only able to give an idea some basic consideration due to time constraints, it's often possible to build consensus around an idea that isn't actually the best one. And by the time someone with a better idea comes around, the idea that has already built consensus can use that power to squash it. Bu…

Whenever I think I'm making an arbitrary decision that isn't necessarily the obvious best one, I try to explicitly point that out to my coworkers. "I really like this idea over the others, but I am definitely biased for x, y, z reasons. Since I'll likely be the one doing the work, I'd obviously prefer to do it that way. Is that foolish in this case, or would folk generally be okay with it? I'd love it if somebody tried to change my mind."

Half the time I end up getting mind changed, and the final result, while still arbitrary, is better than any of the original plans would have been.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#104

Post by sgtnoodle »

andrewem wrote: post #95
sgtnoodle wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prednisone, and it definitely altered my personality significantly. I also ordered $400 worth of RC quadcopter parts, and spent 8 hours straight sanding off and re-polishing the top surface of my eyeglass lenses to get rid of the anti-reflective coating that was cracked and pitted. In the month leading up to that, interactions at work were also giving me anxiety bordering on panic attacks, like a visceral fight-or-fl…

I knew someone who was on prednisone for 3 days. They got 6 days worth of things done in those 3 days, then spent the next 3 days of withdrawal in bed unable to do anything. Also: this is wildly off topic, but did your 8 hours of sanding off cracked anti-reflective coating work? What equipment did you need? I had a similar issue and it never occurred to me that it might be fixable at home.

Yeah, it worked pretty well for my purpose. The only downside is that the edges got a bit rounded off, leading to more distortion than ideal in my peripheral vision. It was definitely an improvement overall, in that I was less steroid-aggro while wearing them afterward. My brain had no trouble filtering out the increased distortion, vs. the visual artifacts (starbursting) from the worn out coatings.

I sanded the lenses by hand with 200 grit, then 400 grit, then 800 grit wet sand paper. There was the AR coating, but then under that there was some sort of underlying "toughness" coating that I had to completely sand through to get down to polycarbonate. That's what took the longest, since I didn't really know how far I needed to go with it, and it was fairly resistant to the abrasion. I tried soaking the lenses in isopropyl alcohol to soften the coatings, but I don't think it helped at all vs. just applying elbow grease. Once the surfaces were uniformly smooth but frosty looking, I polished them with Novus plastic polish #3, then #2, then #1. It wasn't perfect like a new lens, but the center was optically clear without any starburst reflections. With all the coatings gone, the polycarbonate quickly picks up little scratches just from cleaning, but it's quick to polish out again.

It was worth it to keep me from going completely insane for the next month it took me to get an eye exam and order new glasses.

Taking corticosteroids briefly then stopping cold turkey like that is pretty rough on your endocrine system. I had to be on the high dose for many weeks to get the desired effect, and my doctor had me slowly taper off over the course of a few months to keep from crashing like that.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#105

Post by agstewart »

jonahss wrote: post #25
jart wrote: post #16

One can use Nemawashi to lay the foundation for consensus. An even more powerful technique is to use Numerology to identify the consensus that already exists. See https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/master/libc/sysv/s... and https://justine.lol/ape.html

Is this spam?

I think it's humour, that magic numbers can be used to "create consensus" among operating systems, enabling portable binaries.

See discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271117

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#106

Post by brailsafe »

bopbeepboop wrote: post #69
brailsafe wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I thought, until I never understood and was way more emotionally involved than I actually was involved. How will you handle that frustration? I didn't realize it at the time, but everyone of the same seniority level, but a few years older, already realized not to give a single fuck about anything beyond their immediate sphere of influence. They had already learned that the work truly did not matter, and a…

You can’t prevent yourself from getting worn away by pre-emptively crushing yourself. Your advice is contradictory: you’re just immediately causing future pain.

In retrospect, my comment sounds more dramatic than I intend. I'm not recommending that, I'm just saying it's not worth letting yourself get too invested in a company or role that you really don't have much agency over. Your personal investment should be commensurate with your control and influence.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#107

Post by brailsafe »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #59
brailsafe wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I thought, until I never understood and was way more emotionally involved than I actually was involved. How will you handle that frustration? I didn't realize it at the time, but everyone of the same seniority level, but a few years older, already realized not to give a single fuck about anything beyond their immediate sphere of influence. They had already learned that the work truly did not matter, and a…

Caring too much results in burnout, but I think not caring at all is just as damaging. I would rather experience some frustration than feel completely disconnected from my work. I'm not quite foolish enough to think that I will be able to control how things work no matter whether I'm a junior or senior. Even if my involvement was limited to observing, that would still be a win to me though. > Probably try not to invo…

I've worked in a variety of companies, but the one that this comment is mostly based on was a large non-tech auction company.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#109

Post by hn_asker »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #22

Is this not kind of intuitive to people? If you rock up and go, "we're doing this big thing tomorrow and oops sorry we didn't mention it before" of course you're going to encounter more push back. On the other hand, if you get people on your team before doing something then they will trust you and possibly even become advocates!

Yes, this is what backlog grooming and sprint planning are for.

Re: Senior Engineers Build Consensus (2019)

#110

Post by atypicbiped »

whateveracct wrote: post #37
atypicbiped wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Does anyone you work with know your plan? If not, how do you deal with the loneliness?

I'm married and have pets :shrug: Use your free time post-covid to build up something worthwhile. A cat is a good start! Love for its own sake is more than enough. But it takes a suspension of disbelief that modernity may have beat out of you.

I’m 22 and a senior+ developer at a BigCo. I optimized my whole life to be able to escape from the big capitalist machinery as quickly and cleanly as possible. Maybe a cat’s a good idea to get me through the next couple years.. but honestly a pet rat seems like a lot less commitment given they live 2-3 years yet are still affectionate creatures.
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