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Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

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Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#101

Post by candiodari »

epistasis wrote: post #75
tw_hn_3_14_2021 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow, no one in SF has realized this: that they can institute rent control... and increase housing supply... at the same time.

These are not contradictory ideas. The pro forms that will finance any construction loan/mortgage is not going to let the builder assume big increases in rents beyond inflation. In fact, if the only way to increase rents is to build a larger building and collect from more units, rent control could actually incentivize building. Where rent control gets into trouble is where it encourages "got mine, forget allowing any…

Maybe not, but obviously the institution of rent control is an attempt to get out from under the house price problem without construction. That's why it's not working.

The policy doesn't make half as much sense if you also increase construction.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#102

Post by pchristensen »

kcorbitt wrote: post #8

The article states that Vienna's population in 1914 (at the beginning of WW1) was 2 million, vs 1.9 million today. I'm no housing policy expert, but isn't it possible that Vienna's rents are stable and low in part because they haven't had to increase their housing stock in over 100 years? It seems to me that a new-world city like Vancouver that has grown tremendously over that period wouldn't be directly comparable.

I don't have the numbers handy, but household size has shrunk dramatically over the last 100 years. I would guess that today's 1.9M people represent 50-100% more househoulds than 1914's 2M.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#103

Post by pchristensen »

aerosmile wrote: post #71
throwawayboise wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, you get to keep your house no matter how much anyone - including the government - would prefer you didn't. Not true at all. Eminent Domain is a real thing. The controversies have generally been when there is a dispute over whether the taking is for a public benefit, e.g. condeming property to make way for a private business.

> Eminent Domain is a real thing. It's technically a thing but totally not a thing in the context of my comment and this topic in general. I doubt you'll make a case that China, Russia, or for that matter, even Austria have stronger private property rights than the US. Remember, the origination story of the US revolves around private land ownership attracting European migrants who were fed up with European feudalism.…

Other countries, notably Japan but others that escape my memory, have stronger property rights because the government has weaker power of eminent domain. This has more details, see the section about Japan - https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/02/02/civil-service-...

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#104

Post by em-bee »

haspok wrote: post #95
forrestthewoods wrote: post #6

So a hundred years ago the city imposed crazy taxes on land owners and then bought the land for themselves. Then the city built a lot of housing on the now city-owned land via non-profit construction. The article doesn’t make a strong attempt to explain how their housing affordability is “solved” though. How easy it to find a new apartment to rent? How much does it cost? What do you get for that price? How does this…

When you rent you usually do it via a Makler (real estate agent), who is going to ask for 2 months of rent as his/her fee. This is not the deposit, which is usually 3 months, and not the first month rent, this money is gone forever. So people tend to rent on the longer term, 5-10 years easily, because you have to have about 6 months of rent in cash available just to start. Which sucks if you find a job somewhere else…

in austria (and germany) buying a house or an apartment is considered a luxury.

if your income is low and you need financial support from the government then you need to first liquidate any nonessential assets, which includes any house or apartment you own.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#105

Post by em-bee »

giantg2 wrote: post #21

If we are going to get government involved in this, then why not shift to cheaper area? There's cheaper land in more rural areas that the government could develop and entice businesses to move to. This would be cheaper for the tax payer. There's also an exodus from many cities which leave abandoned buildings that could be converted to living space. Maybe the article works for Vancouver (I've never been there), but I…

aren't cheaper areas cheaper because less people want to live there?

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#106

Post by giantg2 »

em-bee wrote: post #105
giantg2 wrote: post #21

If we are going to get government involved in this, then why not shift to cheaper area? There's cheaper land in more rural areas that the government could develop and entice businesses to move to. This would be cheaper for the tax payer. There's also an exodus from many cities which leave abandoned buildings that could be converted to living space. Maybe the article works for Vancouver (I've never been there), but I…

aren't cheaper areas cheaper because less people want to live there?

It's usually cheaper because there are fewer people living there. That is usually due to fewer jobs being available. Many people are forced to move away from the small town or rural communities that they grew up in due to a lack of industry. So many people would like to live there, but can't due to the work constraints.

Imagine the savings that a major company could have if they moved from a place like silicon valley to somewhere like Kentucky. Land can be had for $500 an acre, cost of living is lower and could greatly reduce salary requirements, and you can still have this while being less than an hour from a major city (or two).

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#107

Post by em-bee »

giantg2 wrote: post #106
em-bee wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aren't cheaper areas cheaper because less people want to live there?

It's usually cheaper because there are fewer people living there. That is usually due to fewer jobs being available. Many people are forced to move away from the small town or rural communities that they grew up in due to a lack of industry. So many people would like to live there, but can't due to the work constraints. Imagine the savings that a major company could have if they moved from a place like silicon valley…

ah, yes, for a company that people want to work for that makes sense. i misread your post and thought you meant for the government to motivate the building of housing in cheaper areas.

unfortunately it's often either one or the other, but not both. most places i have seen are satellite cities where people live but commute into the actual city center, or they are industrial parks without any living quarters nearby.

it takes a lot more to make such areas attractive.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#108

Post by manicdee »

worik wrote: post #93
manicdee wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also work on reducing demand. Reducing population growth to negative numbers will bring benefits across the economy and ecology of the planet.

Not necessarily benefit the economy. People are a resource. It is all about balance, in a turbulent world

The economy exists as a side effect of getting people the things they need to live fulfilling lives.

Serving the economy is literally putting the cart before the horse.

I need to eat and poop. I don’t measure my value as a person by how much I poop. When people value the metric of pooping over the quality of life of the pooper, you create a broken society.

So too, valuing the movement of money over what the money is used for distorts our society.

More people inflates GDP. GDP is not a measure of anything worthwhile. The economy is not the thing we need to be nurturing — it is a side effect.

Re: Vienna has a 100-year history of building public housing for all (2018)

#109

Post by manicdee »

refurb wrote: post #76
manicdee wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also work on reducing demand. Reducing population growth to negative numbers will bring benefits across the economy and ecology of the planet.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

No. Why we can’t have nice things is the selfishness of the people who worship “the economy” at the cost of human lives.

Why we can’t have nice things is the fascination with enabling rich people to get richer directly at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

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