Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#101

Post by 627467 » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #95

doggosphere wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is VISA an asset that protects against hyperinflation, is it permissionless to participate in, is it censorship resistant, is it pseudonymous? You're comparing your bicycle to a cargo ship saying "see how much more energy efficient my bicycle is?". Meanwhile your bicycle can't tow 1000 tonnes of freight across the ocean. That's why is moot to compare them.

Bitcoin is no longer censorship resistant. From the US Government alone being able to track and prosecute domestic and international criminals using Bitcoin such as Ross Ulbricht [0] or the BTC-e founder [1], to censoring bitcoin addresses [2] , and there being a trend of the centralized Bitcoin miners complying with such orders [3]; that ship sailed a few years ago. "Users" today transacting on the Bitcoin network a…

How is [3] generalizable to all future mining power will require uncle sam permission?

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#102

Post by xiphias2 » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

kelp wrote: post #96

tracedddd wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This place was flooded with extremely biased nocoiners long before energy consumption was a hot topic. I truly believe it’s simply that they want it to fail since they missed the boat, and their ego is on the line as a forward thinking, “ahead of the curve” technologist. It can’t be the biggest development of the last decade, what would that say about them? Therefore, inefficient ponzi that’s only used for drugs!

I was on the boat in 2010. I got off it early when I decided the whole thing was a speculative bubble. I don't really have a lot of regrets about that though. I have more regrets about selling other things too early, like stock positions I once owned.

It's great for you, I love Bitcoin, but there are a lot of other exciting things happening in the world that people should invest in depending on their understanding of the world and their priorities.

I'm also very excited about Moderna's mRNA pipeline for example, building new vaccine for cronic illnesses (vaccines are trivial important application at this point of course), and Tesla's mission of decarbonizing the world and getting rid of air pollution. It's just Bitcoin is what I believe will give me the highest ROI right now to invest later in other important technologies.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#103

Post by flerchin » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #93

flerchin wrote: post #75

How much electricity should miners waste to get a single bitcoin. Obviously up to the expected price of return. Ergo high BTC prices waste more energy. Bitcoin is designed to be deflationary, so....

The deflationary bit (emission rate halving every 4 years) is also responsible for mining revenues dropping, meaning less money to be spent on electricity.

Transaction costs just go up.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#104

Post by xiphias2 » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #97

dvh1990 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you don't have the problem because your government is currently not oppressing you and nobody is targeting you. But if that were to change I believe you'll start appreciating Bitcoin more.

The idea that some made-up money that only exists on the internet is some kind of weapon against oppressive governments is so out of touch with reality, that it's incomprehensible how somebody can actually believe that.

For me it is the only reality that exists. I have been using Bitcoin for a long time, travelling a lot, and I see a lot of currencies, and none of them feel close to my ideology. I accept them at the same time, and work around the tax laws imposed by my country by getting a loan against my BTC (which I wouldn't need to if I would live in another country).

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#105

Post by root_axis » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #90

root_axis wrote: post #80

The problem with bitcoin isn't merely that it uses a ton of energy, it's that the amount of energy consumed has practically zero relationship to the utility provided by the network. Yes, Visa uses a lot of energy, it's also a global payment platform servicing hundreds of millions of transactions per day, the amount of energy used correlates with the amount of useful work provided by the network, this is not true of P…

>bitcoin power consumption actually increases because an increase in efficiency means more money if similar rates of power are consumed, except this also has the side effect of increasing mining difficulty, thus making the entire network more energy hungry overall well not really, the amount of bitcoin to be mined is fixed (and actually drops in the long term), so the amount of money that is up for grabs should stay…

Price is one factor, but ultimately the actual price is secondary to the fact that miners are incentivized to hash as much as possible because more hashes per kWh means more earnings, regardless of the actual price, yet this increase in hashes per kWh doesn't actually provide more utility for the network.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#106

Post by hudon » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #101

hudon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is no longer censorship resistant. From the US Government alone being able to track and prosecute domestic and international criminals using Bitcoin such as Ross Ulbricht [0] or the BTC-e founder [1], to censoring bitcoin addresses [2] , and there being a trend of the centralized Bitcoin miners complying with such orders [3]; that ship sailed a few years ago. "Users" today transacting on the Bitcoin network a…

How is [3] generalizable to all future mining power will require uncle sam permission?

I'm showing evidence for how censorship is happening today in Bitcoin and therefore we cannot claim it to be "censorship resistant". Whether miners co-operate or not with the prosecutors is beside the point. The example of miner co-operation is just to show how easy censorship can be, but from the government's point of view it is just an optimization, not a necessary function.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#107

Post by doggosphere » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #95

doggosphere wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is VISA an asset that protects against hyperinflation, is it permissionless to participate in, is it censorship resistant, is it pseudonymous? You're comparing your bicycle to a cargo ship saying "see how much more energy efficient my bicycle is?". Meanwhile your bicycle can't tow 1000 tonnes of freight across the ocean. That's why is moot to compare them.

Bitcoin is no longer censorship resistant. From the US Government alone being able to track and prosecute domestic and international criminals using Bitcoin such as Ross Ulbricht [0] or the BTC-e founder [1], to censoring bitcoin addresses [2] , and there being a trend of the centralized Bitcoin miners complying with such orders [3]; that ship sailed a few years ago. "Users" today transacting on the Bitcoin network a…

- People are not prosecuted for using Bitcoin, they are prosecuted for crimes like drug trafficking or money laundering. Even Ross Ulbricht was not necessarily traced because of his Bitcoins.

- Geographic distribution of nodes and mining is important for decentralization.

- I don't live in the United States. I can wash/tumble my coins, proxy through other networks. Transact through Monero. The power is on the side of the users.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#108

Post by rspeele » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #42

There are so many frustrated nocoiners here on HN, it’s crazy. It’s interesting that on a tech site people can be more negative towards new technology, than on youtube for example, where I don’t see so much hate....I just don’t understand why.

Well, a basic element of Bitcoin is that its energy usage per 10 minutes can be calculated roughly as:

    dollars-per-btc * btc-reward-per-block / kwh-per-dollar

The network is paying out $X every 10 minutes to miners. If miners, in aggregate, are spending more than $X some will stop because it's not profitable. If miners, in aggregate, are spending less than $X, more miners join in because there's still some easy profit to be had. Obviously, there is some friction preventing this from being a perfect match (entry cost of buying new mining hardware) but this is an approximate price target for how much money "makes sense" for the miners to spend in total.

Here on HN people seem to mostly understand that this means:

1. Higher bitcoin valuation leads directly to more spending on mining

2. Cheaper energy just leads to more energy consumed by mining for the same amount of spending

3. The amount spent on mining has no market-driven correlation to the amount "needed" for security

That seems like a pretty bad system from a technology point of view.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#109

Post by jcranmer » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

rspeele wrote: post #64

creato wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying grocery stores, cars, and hospitals only exist because of the "USD ecosystem", and would not exist if Bitcoin were dominant?

Of course not! I thought we were just listing things paid for in dollars. Like "the US military which backs the dollar, and the other armies which compete with it". The armies of the world ain't going away either. Nor banks. Nor status signaling.

No, it seems to be a serious belief that some enthusiasts have that the USD doesn't have value except for military spending, and therefore there's no need to spend on a military if you have an alternative trust basis for currency.

More likely, I think it's the cognitive dissonance of Bitcoin's insane energy usage causing them to find anything remotely plausible to tot up in fiat's column, especially now that Bitcoin pretty clearly consumes more energy than not merely "all the computers backing VISA" but "all the computers backing all financial transactions for all currencies in the world."

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#110

Post by Guzba » Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

rspeele wrote: post #92

Guzba wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conversation never goes anywhere because it's apples and oranges. VISA connects other intermediaries. It isn't actually transferring money, its basically getting two parties to agree to a transfer with a huge pile of terms and fees. It's just not the same thing.

I mean, you could just as well say Bitcoin isn't actually transferring money, it's just changing whose private keys are able to move a token around. If you define "money" as something you can pay your rent, taxes, and grocery expenses with, Coinbase and the exchanges are the ones that really settle that into money.

Do you believe that distinction is on the same scale as the distinction I pointed out between comparing VISA and Bitcoin? Nothing is completely black and white, but I believe your distinction is into the pedantic territory whereas the other is fundamental. One can certainly pay for goods and services directly with Bitcoin.