“User engagement” is code for “addiction” • Hacker News Board

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#101

Post by ummonk » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

tppiotrowski wrote: post #50

mywittyname wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I see it more akin to the opioid crisis. Just like drug manufactures shouldn't be pushing opioids as a way to deal with minor pain and depression because they know it…

Can you provide some reading material about the scientists that get paid millions of dollars to keep you hooked? This is the first time I’ve heard of scientists involved.

FANG pay is usually hundreds of thousands not millions, but most data scientists at these companies are working to optimize user engagement.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#102

Post by fumar » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

mgraczyk wrote: post #69

Posts like this completely misunderstand how companies like Facebook think and operate. As a result, they cause people to fight boogymen instead of working toward positive change. Yes, using Facebook instead of doing something like talking in person or reading a book is probably worse for you in the long run. But most people don't do those things instead of Facebook. Instead they use Tiktok. Or watch TV. Or read Teen…

I understand your POV and can empathize. I tell myself similar affirmations. "Our users value our features and content. They connect to the world for the better using us." But, I can't shake the truth of our business model – ad revenue. It drives the entire organization down a strict path.

Take an extreme example: A manufacturer of sugar. You started your company because of close proximity to sugar cane but over time the sugar industry grew. Then science revealed how bad sugar is for the human body in large amounts. Can you shift your business from selling sugar to an alternative? You are in the business of selling sugar and everything is centered around one goal "sell sugar". There is a subset of buyers that buy and consume in large quantities. Do you tell your consumers to stop eating sugar?

FB and similar are in the business of selling available ad inventory. Thanks to technology the availability and "sweetness" of it is unlimited. Can we quantify the potential individual or societal impacts? Science claims to think so and its not looking great.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#103

Post by roughly » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

I'd consider the auto industry to be a "baker" industry (for the most part). Ikea's a "baker", GAP is a "baker". A lot of the pre-digital world made pure play baked goods.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#104

Post by NortySpock » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

carabiner wrote: post #90

roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Two business models in tech: selling a product vs. selling ads. The latter is really selling your users.

selling a product vs selling ads vs selling a feeling (dopamine hits)?

Some freemium games are clearly just trying to hit the dopamine center.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#105

Post by NortySpock » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

Apple hardware/software, Microsoft Windows, Intel hardware, Netflix (buffet TV shows), Amazon web store (logistics), Etsy store, Steam / GOG Games - all of these (except Netflix) are selling* either hardware or software, to you, once.

Netflix is a subscription to access and stream a lot of shows, but it is "fee for subscription service", not all that different from an alarm company subscription, OnStar, or a subscription lawn maintenance company.

* Ok, Steam / GOG Games or Microsoft Windows is a licensed use with limited conditions, it's not like you can use it on just any hardware

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#106

Post by matwood » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:25 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> We have to start reminding people that they are in control of their decisions

Exactly. I not a big FB user, but last year I was on a lot more than normal b/c I was home. Then one day I realized I was just either arguing with family or reading things that left me disappointed, and wondered why am I subjecting myself to this? I didn't delete my account because I still use messenger to communicate to a few people, but I haven't been on FB proper for months.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#107

Post by legerdemain » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #74

legerdemain wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you call yourself helplessly "addicted" to Twitter? If not, then you disagree with the premise of TFA.

I would. Every morning, I wake up saying I'm going to log off Twitter for the day as soon as my coffee's done, and most days I end up logging multiple hours of Twitter time.

I see. I wish you success in breaking your addiction. A number of support tools are available!

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#108

Post by AndrewUnmuted » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see.

Isn't this also denying people their individual agency, though? Using Facebook is not like sex is for teens, who are faced with the rather unavoidable biological realities of puberty. There are many ways to achieve the things people seek from Facebook, some technological and some not.

We don't need to start under the assumption that people will not be able to commit to having more healthy media consumption habits. These tools offered by Apple, Facebook and Google you mention are not things we should be encouraging. If these companies had the user's best interests at heart, their products would not need these kinds of sub-features in the first place. But when you study the gambling and nicotine industries to figure out how to better hook your users to your mobile apps, you didn't start out from the right place. So I would reckon the answer to that would be to abstain from the product entirely.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#109

Post by parkersweb » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #99

loveistheanswer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education Not at all; its more like breaking up with a toxic, manipulative, dishonest partner. There's many more fish in the sea and there's many more ways to heathily socialize than just Facebook. Though I suppose people in abusive relationships often have a sort of Stockholm syndrome where they see no alternatives.

not only do people in abusive relationships often have stockholm syndrome, many people are actually materially dependent on their partner, for example women who have stayed home a long time historically but also still today, and thus they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk. Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relatio…

It’s off-topic - but I found this BBC podcast on the simplification of using Stockholm syndrome as an explanation fascinating:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s7n1

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#110

Post by scsilver » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

I think our built environment and lack of engaging community is the main reason we are disadvantaged against self control. We need trust and support of others, we need it daily, and we dont get enough of it to make significant progress against many addictions. A change in our built environment is a start to improving our connections to our local community, and subsequently continued accountability when facing addictive influences.