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The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

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Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#101

Post by Jtsummers »

bluGill wrote: post #67
chaorace wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrifying sentence: "the government version of Teams". Out of curiosity, what makes it different?

I would guess that the government doesn't take the latest updates vs having a different program called teams. The government may also refuse to install some plugins.

More importantly, the "government version of " is often hosted on something separate from the commercial version. That is, 20 companies all using MS Teams may all be actually communicating with a common (or barely segregated) backend. The government version is often running on a distinct suite of servers that only the government version touches.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#102

Post by [deleted] »

jeffwass wrote: post #91
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I live in the UK and we have BSL (British Sign Language). It’s absolutely bonkers that two fairly different sign languages exist for the same base spoken language. That said, BSL uses a lot of facial cues, not just hands and arms, to allow for a range expression. Eg puffing out your cheeks to accentuate certain words.

[deleted]

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#103

Post by myself248 »

dnndev wrote: post #28
thepete2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of unrelated, but I wonder if a small amount (say 100 signs or so) of sign language (ASL or local equivalent) wouldn't be useful for hearing people in their day-to-day lives. I'm very interested in sign-language, but language being what it is you can't do it alone ...

Super powers Sign Language -> communicate with someone in a noisy room (across the room even) Braille -> A friend of mine learned braille so he could "read" books after his parents said lights out. What a rebel.

Yes, super powers!

I went to a high school where the drama department did at least one play a year in ASL. Brought in instructors from the local deaf community, and all the drama kids learned it.

This was also business genius, because it basically guaranteed ticket sales. A huge number of deaf people in the area would show up for every such play, year after year. Even parents with kids at the school generally stop coming to plays after their kids graduate, but this audience was loyal on the scale of decades.

It also meant that a significant chunk of the student body was now able to communicate in/across a noisy room. During assemblies and stuff, you'd see a dozen conversations in progress, not making a sound.

Or, communicate near-silently. Clothes rustle and certain signs involve patting, but neither of those sticks out the way voices do. Coordinating a prank behind the teacher's back....

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#104

Post by mabbo »

gnuvince wrote: post #12
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I didn't know much of anything about ASL, but seeing David Cowan at some press conferences in Georgia made me a bit curious. There's a nice video of him on Youtube[1] where he explains that deaf people's native language is ASL, and not English. That was absolutely flabbergasting to me, because I had always imagine, like you said, that it was just "do this gesture to mean this word and this gesture for this other word…

To add to what bluGill commented, there is "Signed English" which is word for word translation, there is ASL (or other signed languages), and there is a spectrum in between!

And there can be disagreements in the Deaf community about, for lack of a better word, 'purity' of the language. Is it 'okay' to just sign English words with English grammar? Is there an ethical or moral imperative to maintain ASL as a language and not just a translation of another language? And then you have one person telling another person that there's something wrong with how they communicate their native language! Language overlapping with culture overlapping with disability (or different-ability?) overlapping with people being people.

There's no easy answers. But it's fascinating.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#105

Post by myself248 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #45
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure on the "very specific" part. We use some general, non-specific signs ("OK", "good" [thumbs up, depending on your cultural background and situation]). We, the hearing community in my country (UK), use gestures too of course. Could you give a few examples of signs hearing people use where you are that you consider "very specific"?

>>> where you are that you consider "very specific"? Flipping the bird. Pointing at things. Hand signals when driving (more a thing for motorcyclists). Then there are plenty of job-specific things. Crane operators have their own system of very specific hand gestures for directing crane operations. The military has a host of standardized gestures. DJs/audio techs/musicians have a set for talking in loud environments.…

> The little girl in this vid managed to convey a very specific meaning to a passing ship using only a gesture.

And it's SO specific that just reading that sentence, I knew exactly which meaning you meant, and which gesture. (Clicking the link to confirm was totally worth it though.) I've been on both ends of that gesture and it's always a hoot.

> DJs/audio techs/musicians have a set for talking in loud environments.

Whoah, really? I've improvised plenty, but I'm super curious if there's a standard set. You can always figure out "make louder", "make quieter", point at objects, mimic certain instruments. But it'd be nice to have more vocabulary beyond that.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#106

Post by mabbo »

jeffwass wrote: post #91
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

I live in the UK and we have BSL (British Sign Language). It’s absolutely bonkers that two fairly different sign languages exist for the same base spoken language. That said, BSL uses a lot of facial cues, not just hands and arms, to allow for a range expression. Eg puffing out your cheeks to accentuate certain words.

> It’s absolutely bonkers that two fairly different sign languages exist for the same base spoken language

Historically speaking, it's because of British snobbery, allegedly. This is how my ASL professor told us it at least.

American Thomas Gallaudet went to the British school for the Deaf hoping to learn BSL, etc. But it was not long after the American Revolution and the British weren't very friendly and wouldn't help him. So he went to France and the French taught him (Old) French Sign Language. FSL became the basis of ASL, along with a number of local influences from Martha's Vineyard sign language (a small locally developed signed language).

Even then, a friend of mine from university who is very hard of hearing and mostly signs told me that on a trip to Britain he met some British Deaf people at a bar and by the end of the night was mostly fluent. There's enough overlap and enough shared experience between Deaf people that one can learn very quickly.

> That said, BSL uses a lot of facial cues, not just hands and arms, to allow for a range expression. Eg puffing out your cheeks to accentuate certain words.

This is 100% common to all Signed languages. Facial cues are huge in ASL. Before class, not joking, I would practice in the mirror to warm myself up. My first ASL prof described it by saying that in English, you could read off each word like a robot, with no inflection or tone- and that would be the same as signing with just your hands.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#107

Post by ViViDboarder »

thepete2 wrote: post #5
mabbo wrote: post #3

Two quick misconceptions to call out for those less familiar with signed languages: 1. ASL is not just English with each word replaced with a sign. It's an incredibly complex language with different grammatical rules, some of which don't have English equivalents. 2. It's incredibly flexible. Many core grammar components will remain consistent, but often if you drive to another city, many words/signs will be different…

This is kind of unrelated, but I wonder if a small amount (say 100 signs or so) of sign language (ASL or local equivalent) wouldn't be useful for hearing people in their day-to-day lives. I'm very interested in sign-language, but language being what it is you can't do it alone ...

I’m heading but learned ASL at work. Ever since, I’ve tried to get my wife to learn because I’m always noticing times when it would be handy (pun not intended).

Noisy places, when I’m brushing my teeth, when I want to be more discrete in public, communicating across a room without yelling.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#108

Post by smithza »

ViViDboarder wrote: post #107
thepete2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of unrelated, but I wonder if a small amount (say 100 signs or so) of sign language (ASL or local equivalent) wouldn't be useful for hearing people in their day-to-day lives. I'm very interested in sign-language, but language being what it is you can't do it alone ...

I’m heading but learned ASL at work. Ever since, I’ve tried to get my wife to learn because I’m always noticing times when it would be handy (pun not intended). Noisy places, when I’m brushing my teeth, when I want to be more discrete in public, communicating across a room without yelling.

   when I want to be more discrete in public ..
I think there is an unkindness here, though I do not think your intentions are unkind. I had very close Brazilian-internationals while a freshman in college who very deliberately chose not to speak their native tongue around Americans due to them thinking it unkind. My wife and I frequently do use some simple signs across the room, like "ready to go" (we are both hearing but have two semesters of ASL education).

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#109

Post by smithza »

bluGill wrote: post #43
swsieber wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what signing is amazing for? Teaching babies to communicate before they have proper vocal control (preverbal is the term I think). We're talking useful communication at under a year. Something like 9-12 months.

Somewhat. Babies do tend to learn a few signs, and it is useful when they can indicate what they need. However as soon as they learn to talk they universally forget everything. I know people fluent in sign (a large part of their job is working with the deaf), and when they sign to babies the babies are like "you idiot: I just heard you talking to someone else so don't insult my intelligence by not talking to me" The…

   Babies do tend to learn a few signs...However as soon as they learn to talk they universally forget everything.
This was our experience with our young child. It helped to be able to say "more" and sometimes "please" and eventually "all done" but eventually spoken words replaced this communication form. My wife and I have two semesters worth of education under Deaf teachers but have no plans of pressing further on this as a second language for our son.

Re: The Covid Zoom Boom Is Reshaping Sign Language

#110

Post by pessimizer »

rblatz wrote: post #70
interestica wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said; it is amazing how many sign languages can come to similar conclusions due to "always trying to find the simplest way of explaining yourself". This is fascinating. Do you have an examples that stick out?

So from my memory of ASL in college there was less worry about being rude or not offending. So if you were asked who someone was, you would start with their most identifiable feature. So if they are the only black guy in the room, or the most over weight you’d sign the black guy or the fat guy. Whereas in English it’s basically a joke now that we’d use just about any other descriptor besides those.

I would guess that has more to do with speaking in private rather than anything else. If one knows that the black guy or the fat guy or someone who loves them won't hear them, they'll refer to them however they would like. Same goes for anyone who speaks a minority language; I've had a few very good eastern European and Asian friends who told me later how I was being referred to by somebody who seemed entirely civil in English.
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