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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

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Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#101

Post by minitoar »

Jtsummers wrote: post #76
minitoar wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring a 4 year degree for a job even if the major isn’t relevant doesn’t seem wrong to me. Maybe data entry is taking it too far? Maybe the data was really sensitive and complicated.

It causes inflation of job requirements, delays entry into careers, produces vast amounts of unnecessary debt and spending, promotes substandard graduate programs so people can be differentiated from the other history majors, and all because a high school diploma is considered worthless by most companies for their non-technical entry level positions.

Maybe the value of differentiating potential employees is worth it overall.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#102

Post by 908B64B197 »

gonehome wrote: post #100
908B64B197 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does a classics degree cost the same as a CS degree when the market value of a classics degree is basically zero? Because it has a large numbers of applicants. It's offer and demand. > Universities also get a lot of their prestige from research and the majority of their effort is typically not spent on undergraduate education. This means professors are not typically rewarded for being (or even expected to be) e…

> "Because it has a large numbers of applicants. It's offer and demand." I suspect that's because these students are really buying prestige and a classics degree is the easiest option. > Something I've noticed and take this with a grain of salt as this is a sample=1 observation is that the better researchers (more publications, better funded labs) were generally also better teachers. This isn't a huge surprise to me…

> I suspect that's because these students are really buying prestige and a classics degree is the easiest option.

Probably. But the value falls dramatically once you get to tier two schools, and becomes almost worthless for tier 3.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#103

Post by gonehome »

908B64B197 wrote: post #102
gonehome wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Because it has a large numbers of applicants. It's offer and demand." I suspect that's because these students are really buying prestige and a classics degree is the easiest option. > Something I've noticed and take this with a grain of salt as this is a sample=1 observation is that the better researchers (more publications, better funded labs) were generally also better teachers. This isn't a huge surprise to me…

> I suspect that's because these students are really buying prestige and a classics degree is the easiest option. Probably. But the value falls dramatically once you get to tier two schools, and becomes almost worthless for tier 3.

Which is exactly what I'd predict in a world where "Interest Surges in Top Colleges, While Struggling Ones Scrape for Applicants".

When the thing being sold is prestige, lower tier colleges don't actually have the product that's in demand. So they can charge basically nothing since they're selling nothing of value. That's not viable as a business (unless they lie to students who don't know better and pretend that they're selling prestige they don't have, "a degree will improve your life"). A lot of lower tier colleges fit this kind of con, the for-profit ones are explicitly this.

If they actually provided valuable education that'd be different, but they largely don't.

I think Lambda School style ISAs are the way for all but the top tier colleges. It means they have to actually be good at education.

Imagine the opportunity of actually being good at education and doing ISAs. It would mean your institution could do what Universities largely just pretend to do. You could make money from ISAs and aligned incentives/student success. You could also make money from companies as a recruiting agency if your students were actually guaranteed to be good. Your curriculum would be closely tied to what's needed and what's relevant.

You don't even have to give up the classics if you don't want to, they can just exist along side the other stuff (as they should). You just don't pretend they're hard or economically viable on their own.

Actual education is super powerful, it's just a diminutive part of what Universities have become and they're not very good at it.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#104

Post by kop316 »

DC1350 wrote: post #85
kop316 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this actually. Community College classes are MUCH cheaper, and are even more so if you don't take the class for credit (where I went, tuition was $20 for a 1 credit class for non-degree seekers. No that was not a typo, it was Twenty USD for the entire class). Community College professors don't do research, so they are usually focused much more on teaching cl…

The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career

I think your comment misses my original intent. If people might value education for its own sake (which is what I was replying to), then I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this.

But to address your point:

> The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career

Since the instructor I had was a well known local musician, he actually called me up a few times for a gig, and I have done quite a bit of networking that way. I think you would be surprised just what type of networking oppritunities are actually are at a decent community college.

Like I said in my comment:

> I have actually known quite a few professors who are in actual industry and teach a class or two.

One of the best entry-level folks I have ever met we found this way. He is an incredibly hard and smart worker, but did not have the money to go to a four year university. So he went to community college, and a colleague of mine who taught there offered him a job as he was a student. Now he has a four year degree (he was able to pay his way through college with that job) and is one of the best contrbutors to that group.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#105

Post by DC1350 »

kop316 wrote: post #104
DC1350 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career

I think your comment misses my original intent. If people might value education for its own sake (which is what I was replying to), then I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this. But to address your point: > The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting p…

Yea I missed the point. Everyone I’ve ever met who went to a community college did it specifically to learn job skills since those are what all the programs were for. I didn’t know they taught things just for the sake of knowledge or personal interest.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#108

Post by colinmhayes »

borski wrote: post #77
colinmhayes wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the median income of people who attended college?

"For 25- to 34-year-olds who worked full time, year round in 2018, higher educational attainment was associated with higher median earnings. This pattern was consistent from 2000 through 2018. For example, in 2018 the median earnings of those with a master’s or higher degree ($65,000) were 19 percent higher than the earnings of those with a bachelor’s degree ($54,700), and the median earnings of those with a bachelor…

Close, but still not the data we need. What schools are looking at it family income of the students which means the 25-34 range isn't going to cut it. No need to do further research as I agree with your premise, but I think the number of students who receive minimal aid and family help might be higher than you expect.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#110

Post by Jtsummers »

minitoar wrote: post #101
Jtsummers wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes inflation of job requirements, delays entry into careers, produces vast amounts of unnecessary debt and spending, promotes substandard graduate programs so people can be differentiated from the other history majors, and all because a high school diploma is considered worthless by most companies for their non-technical entry level positions.

Maybe the value of differentiating potential employees is worth it overall.

Maybe for the businesses, I'm skeptical that this is a positive for society and the economy overall.
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