Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

kjzz.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 434 posts

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#101

Post by vntok »

indymike wrote: post #96
mattmcknight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped this in a comment elsewhere in this discussion, but also makes sense here... I find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucrati…

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

Implementing "the law" is anything and everything but simple.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#102

Post by code_duck »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #24
crummybowley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even if it was a bug... I don't understand why software would prevent somebody opening the gate and letting the inmate out...

1.5 million prisoners in the USA. You want to go through that list, without software?

I wouldn't do it myself, but I imagine a team of a few hundred people could get it done in a month. We're only talking about Arizona, though.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#103

Post by frompdx »

pm90 wrote: post #73
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

Software is just a tool, it can be used to build good or bad things. It would be hard to see this in e.g. Scandinavian countries, where incarceration is seen as rehabilitative rather than punitive. In the US, racial discrimination, free market extremism along with "tough on crime" laws have created unimaginably cruel systems; together with private prisons, the goal has been on cutting costs rather than rehabilitating…

Indeed, software is an enabling technology and is morally ambivalent just like any other tool. A machine tool can make a medical device to save lives or military device to destroy lives. At the heart of the issue is the intricate web of institutional mouse traps designed to convert low stakes issues into serious offenses. For example, a person who does does respond to a citation for expired vehicle tags is now ensured in a mechanism that turns a minor issue related to tax collection into a real criminal offense. It is up to humans to make these things so.

I brought up the Ask HN question mostly because I felt the lack of replies were a silent acknowledgement of the realities of most software endeavors. That they are not making the world a better place. Most aren't going out of their way to make it worse. Probably, it isn't even a consideration.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#104

Post by malandrew »

frompdx wrote: post #75
mattmcknight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped this in a comment elsewhere in this discussion, but also makes sense here... I find the government "requirements" process tends to create situations like this. Rather than build flexible software that puts some degree of trust in the person using it, they tend to overspecify the current bureaucratic process. In many cases, the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucrati…

the person pushing for the software is looking to use software to enforce bureaucratic control that they have been unable to otherwise exercise This is frequently my observation as well. In the process of creating stricter control the bureaucrat increases the the power of their bureaucracy while shifting the blame for any problems to a faceless entity. They then institute all sorts of punishments and controls to insu…

> In the process of creating stricter control the bureaucrat increases the the power of their bureaucracy while shifting the blame for any problems to a faceless entity.

They are basically using software to preserve the problem to which they are the solution. i.e. the shirky principle

https://kk.org/thetechnium/the-shirky-prin/

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#105

Post by anchpop »

snicker7 wrote: post #88
incanus77 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not picking on this comment in particular and not a domain expert, but just a few ideas: - System needs to track sexual offenders and provide updates on their locations to relevant municipalities - Parole officer check, requirements, and termination system needs to know who, what, and where - Statistical record-keeping systems for sentence lengths need to be updated - If felons, voting systems need to be kept updated…

Literally none of those reasons justifies keeping someone in a human cage.

Pay each inmate $10k for each day they're unable to leave prison past one week after the end of their sentence. Most inmates probably wouldn't mind staying a couple months longer if it means they get to leave with a million dollars in the bank, and it would correct the state's incentives.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#106

Post by dimitrios1 »

frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge.

For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validation, should the software fail to perform its task correctly. Bonus side effect, software quality will go up across the board in the industry.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#107

Post by [deleted] »

mattmcknight wrote: post #56
opportune wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I think custom software contracting and vendorization is a “noob-trap”. Software needs to be updated and maintained and you never know when you start writing it what the real requirements are. If I were a taxpayer in this state I’d be angry that my money would be going to a series of middlemen (e.g. a procurement consultant, program manager on the gov side, a contractor manager, the contracting company’s…

Unfortunately the pay scale for state software developers never (I almost never say never) has a proper differential over other employees with the same level of experience, meaning they are often below 10th percentile of market rate, and thus the employees that end up in those jobs tend to be among the least skilled and motivated people I've ever dealt with. Even though contractors mess up, you can fire them. What's…

[deleted]

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#108

Post by bookmarkable »

If you broke out of prison after your release date, are you breaking the law? Or refuse to go in your cell? This is some gross bureaucratic incompetence, so I couldn't really fault an inmate that wasn't willing to spend even 5 extra minutes in prison.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#109

Post by pmontra »

> the entire inmate management software program, known as ACIS, has experienced more than 14,000 bugs since it was implemented in November of 2019.

It's been about 470 days since then. It means 29 bugs per day. At least they have in place an impressive process to report and manage bugs. Or is it 14,000 times the same bug?

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#110

Post by cwkoss »

ashtonkem wrote: post #70
hkh28 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

You’re overlooking something else. America has an unbelievable number of prisoners, which makes more careful and humane management effectively impossible. Estimates are that we’ve got about 2% of the US population in prison or somewhere else in the correctional system (pre-trial detention, probation, parole, etc.), the labor required to treat these people like humans isn’t available. And arguably by the point where y…

The US has a specific exemption to the prohibition of slavery for incarcerated individuals in our constitution. I think there are many powerful people in our country with a vested interest in keeping the prison-slave-labor pipeline flowing.
Post reply on HN