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BTC Endgame

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Re: BTC Endgame

#101

Post by shadowgovt »

Laforet wrote: post #53
nostrademons wrote: post #17

You don't need a DoS attack under the assumptions of this project. It's already assumed that you control ~80% of hash rate, so you execute a 51% attack that mass double-spends coins and destroy all confidence in the integrity of the currency. Poof, nobody uses it. Note that China already controls ~65% of Bitcoin hash rate, so if they wanted to execute this right now, they probably could. That they haven't is one reas…

How would a hyperinflation on the US dollar cause civilization to stop? In any case, crypto trading since 2017 has been nothing but people buying and selling imaginary ticker symbols on unregulated exchanges. For example, XVG and ETC has been subject to successful 51% attacks more than once and every time the price was hardly affected. And each time the "solution" to deep chain reorg involved the exchanges freezing a…

> How would a hyperinflation on the US dollar cause civilization to stop?

The dollar is the value used to denominate world debt via the IMF. It's also (partially related to this fact) the "mattress currency" of a lot of nations... Nations hoard US dollars to back-stop their own economies, since if their currency starts to tank, they can use dollars to pay their international debts.

A worthless US dollar would have wide-ranging international currency disruption.

Re: BTC Endgame

#102

Post by Geee »

The defense is that there are thousands of other cryptocurrencies that would take Bitcoin's place. So the attackers wouldn't gain anything in the end.

Re: BTC Endgame

#103

Post by dingus9 »

generalizations wrote: post #51
pvarangot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that China already controls ~65% of Bitcoin hash rate, so if they wanted to execute this right now, they probably could. When you say "China" do you mean like an actor that can make coordinated decisions? Or just a geographic region? I'm asking out of curiosity because yeah there's a lot of miners in China across many geographic regions but I never saw any evidence that they even talking to each other, even le…

I'd make a wild guess that when parent is talking about 'control', they mean that if a miner is located within China, the Chinese government has the ability to put a gun to that miners head and tell them what to do.

China would benefit more by confiscating all hashrate & hoarding all of the BTC for themselves before announcing that BTC is their national currency and driving BTC price to millions per-coin.

It's just as farfetched and unlikely, but anti-Bitcoiners just keep theorizing about a hostile China takeover crashing BTC price as if it's feasible, without considering the inverse.

Re: BTC Endgame

#104

Post by TrainedMonkey »

tshaddox wrote: post #42
WJW wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China gains no benefit from destroying Bitcoin; Citation needed on this one I'm afraid. If nothing else, a currency that the Party cannot control would be A Problem. China did not have much economic benefit in halting the ANT IPO, yet it did not go through all the same. There _might_ be a benefit in allowing bitcoin to continue to exist of course, if they think it advances their cause more than it hurts it. But as…

Why haven’t they destroyed it then?

I think at least part of the reason is because they own it. Per https://www.statista.com/statistics/1200477/bitcoin-mining-b... 65% of all bitcoin mining is in China, this means majority of newly minted coins are in China, but also they can launch 51% attack at any time.

Re: BTC Endgame

#105

Post by hertzrat »

nostrademons wrote: post #55
AffableSpatula wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. If you don't need proof of work to secure a blockchain, then why is the free market of Bitcoin consensus continuing to expend huge amounts of capital to stick with it as its sybil resistance mechanism? If it wasn't considered a value destroying move, the transition away from PoW would've happened already no?

It has, in new cryptocurrencies. Virtually all cryptocurrencies launched since 2017 are proof-of-stake: Cardano, EOS, Stellar, Polkadot, Tezos, TRON. Ethereum is in the process of a very expensive and painful transition from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake. The reason you haven't seen this in the global cryptocurrency industry is because of network effects and adoption curves. Most programmers would probably agree th…

> if you're founding a tech company now, you're pretty dumb to use C++

All us unreal engine using indie developers must be pretty dumb then. It’s true that programming in c# in unity is easier, but the end result of the c++ is a prettier game with more things happening at once at a higher frame rate. More grass, more characters, more animations, more AI nuance, more physics interactions, lower system requirements during a gpu shortage, etc

Re: BTC Endgame

#106

Post by hinkley »

Fnoord wrote: post #66
nine_k wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether CCP has sufficient control over them. If it does not yet, it might consider working on that. OTOH I like the game-theoretic argument: they don't need to.

A better question to ask is: 'is the effort worth the gain?'

Is the theater of starting the process worth the concessions I can win?

It's not bluffing if you're willing to do it. But it's a lot cheaper if you don't have to follow through.

China is scary because of the big risks they're willing to take. Like giant earthquakes or drowning Shanghai if their hydro power system has the failure that western civil engineers have predicted.

Re: BTC Endgame

#107

Post by throwaway1777 »

dingus9 wrote: post #103
generalizations wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd make a wild guess that when parent is talking about 'control', they mean that if a miner is located within China, the Chinese government has the ability to put a gun to that miners head and tell them what to do.

China would benefit more by confiscating all hashrate & hoarding all of the BTC for themselves before announcing that BTC is their national currency and driving BTC price to millions per-coin. It's just as farfetched and unlikely, but anti-Bitcoiners just keep theorizing about a hostile China takeover crashing BTC price as if it's feasible, without considering the inverse.

Because China has already announced DCEP as their national crypto. So the chance of them making btc their currency is basically none while China has already cracked down on btc in various ways in the past. They could in theory use btc as some kind of reserve or exchange currency, but not sure why they would need to when everyone has to bend to their will to trade with them.

Re: BTC Endgame

#108

Post by playingchanges »

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #3

>There is currently no defense for this attack in Bitcoin, as the simulation demonstrates. The entire Bitcoin miner reward model is the defense for this attack. Nation states have powerful computers... but nowhere near as powerful as the decentralized Bitcoin mining network combined. Even if they did currently, the endgame for Bitcoin as envisioned by Satoshi Nakamoto was for everyone on the planet to be mining Bitco…

Right, it seems like there would be plenty of gamers more than willing to replace those ASICS given the opportunity.

Re: BTC Endgame

#109

Post by bsder »

tshaddox wrote: post #42
WJW wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China gains no benefit from destroying Bitcoin; Citation needed on this one I'm afraid. If nothing else, a currency that the Party cannot control would be A Problem. China did not have much economic benefit in halting the ANT IPO, yet it did not go through all the same. There _might_ be a benefit in allowing bitcoin to continue to exist of course, if they think it advances their cause more than it hurts it. But as…

Why haven’t they destroyed it then?

They may be using it to track people attempting to move money out of the country.

Cryptocurrencies aren't very anonymous.

Re: BTC Endgame

#110

Post by worker767424 »

generalizations wrote: post #51
pvarangot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that China already controls ~65% of Bitcoin hash rate, so if they wanted to execute this right now, they probably could. When you say "China" do you mean like an actor that can make coordinated decisions? Or just a geographic region? I'm asking out of curiosity because yeah there's a lot of miners in China across many geographic regions but I never saw any evidence that they even talking to each other, even le…

I'd make a wild guess that when parent is talking about 'control', they mean that if a miner is located within China, the Chinese government has the ability to put a gun to that miners head and tell them what to do.

No need to bother with a gun. Just threaten to take 100 points off their social credit score or ban them from WeChat.
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