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“User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

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Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#101

Post by mschuster91 »

montenegrohugo wrote: post #8

I'd add that algorithmic feeds are another part of the triad (quartet?), and probably the worst offender. Personalized addictive content is on the rise (tiktok, YouTube, even Facebook and Twitter curate your newsfeed "for you" ), and these ml-determined feeds drive engagement to the highest possible levels, leading to an incredible waste of time, a distorted world view (mostly the posts with the highest engagement wi…

> even Facebook and Twitter curate your newsfeed "for you"

At least for Twitter, it allows you to turn that algorithm crap off and it respects that choice - iirc even across devices.

Facebook, meanwhile, has entirely turned off that ability.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#102

Post by DevX101 »

I'm increasingly finding that I have to actively struggle to take ownership of my time and attention. Without an active, conscious, effort to reclaim your mental resources you WILL be caught up in the never-ending cycle of dopamine-dependency to novel information or visual stimulation. Your attention is a valuable resource and many companies have spent billions on figuring out how to farm it.

Some of my more effective methods have included: strict site-blocking via OpenDNS, apps to implement time based blocking of information-novelty sites (Twitter, HN, reddit, instagram, CNN), almost complete disabling of notifications, with the exception of text messages and async work chat during business hours.

All of these methods, I can undo, but it prevents or at least slows down the automatic, reflexive app/site opening when my reptile brain craves a dopamine hit.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#103

Post by michaelt »

throwaway29389 wrote: post #67
montenegrohugo wrote: post #8

I'd add that algorithmic feeds are another part of the triad (quartet?), and probably the worst offender. Personalized addictive content is on the rise (tiktok, YouTube, even Facebook and Twitter curate your newsfeed "for you" ), and these ml-determined feeds drive engagement to the highest possible levels, leading to an incredible waste of time, a distorted world view (mostly the posts with the highest engagement wi…

Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalization I'm honestly surprised to see the world "radicalization" used as a net negative thing, rather than positive/negative/neutral depending on context. E.g. Gandhi would have been called "radical" without implying any violent tendency.

Since 9/11 it's been common to use "radicalization" to refer to crossing the line between regular Islam and Radical Islam.

And (to a lesser extent) the equivalent process for other domestic terrorist groups.

People will still understand what you mean if you use "radicalization" to refer to positive things, but they'll wonder if you're making a very dry joke.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#104

Post by Consultant32452 »

minikites wrote: post #74
Consultant32452 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until people figure out how much power the AIs already have over election outcomes.

What?

The AI determines which political articles and posts you see. The AI determines if you get reminded to register/vote. At the extremes the AI has a very strong impact on whether you believe Obama is a secret Muslim or Trump is a Russian asset.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#105

Post by TeMPOraL »

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #46
Mauricebranagh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this that much different to similar "concerns" about kids watching to much tv back in the 60's 70's etc.

You make a great and difficult point. I’ll try to answer as best I can at least how I see it. Big TV’s goal is to broadcast as engaging as possible material to a general audience. This is broad and therefore not very addictive / effective. Big Tech’s goal is to broadcast as engaging as possible material to an individual. This is specific and therefore very addictive / effective. Regardless that the goal is the same,…

> Big TV’s goal is to broadcast as engaging as possible material to a general audience. This is broad and therefore not very addictive.

That may have been true once, but since then TV distilled down the patterns for maximizing addiction across the biggest segment of the population - that's why most TV is so mind-dumbing that you can almost feel your brain being sucked out of your skull when watching.

But I agree that Internet media are much more focused and much heavier hitters.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#106

Post by asidiali »

goalieca wrote: post #14
s_dev wrote: post #7

Anything that provides a 'hit' stands a chance of being addictive. Including cheeseburgers and fun video games. >Most alarming is the “internet points”. On Reddit, this is called Karma. On Twitter, it’s likes and retweets. Ostensibly, this simple numeric score displays the community’s overall attitude toward a given piece of content. On its face, this appears to be a radically democratic concept; Everyone can vote! T…

Reddit also has purchased up/downvotes (through click-farms/bots), opaque moderation, and the real-time public display of these promote mobs and groupthink even if it were actually organic. I don't think for a second their algorithms do a good enough job of mitigating these clickfarms.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1912.04206.pdf

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#107

Post by TeMPOraL »

salawat wrote: post #48
s_dev wrote: post #7

Anything that provides a 'hit' stands a chance of being addictive. Including cheeseburgers and fun video games. >Most alarming is the “internet points”. On Reddit, this is called Karma. On Twitter, it’s likes and retweets. Ostensibly, this simple numeric score displays the community’s overall attitude toward a given piece of content. On its face, this appears to be a radically democratic concept; Everyone can vote! T…

In intelligence circles, you evaluate an adversary in terms of capabilities as a rule, then figure out the impact of those capabilities when employed against you. I find it interesting that so many people in the world have a knee jerk reaction specifically against doing this. Especially when it comes to tactics around manipulation. The fact is, everyone is vulnerable to it. You don't spend all your time worrying abou…

Tech and "tech companies" are a huge red herring in these discussions. These are business models and business decisions. The algorithms aren't doing this on their own - there are humans there, making decisions to mess with people's heads and make money through tricking other people to part with their money.

It's the same problem as we had 100+ years ago - and really even the same problems real (not stereotypical) Luddites rose against: business decisions. But talking about this is boring, we've been having this discussion for generations. Focusing on "tech" generates more clicks.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#109

Post by bostik »

luplex wrote: post #41

I did an internship with a very profitable Swedish mobile game before the pandemic, and it was really interesting to see the doublethink: everyone knew we were making a drug, but people avoided speaking of it in that way. It was always "our most engaged players readily spend on in-game items", and never "the most addicted users spend money so they can continue playing" It was a great workplace, but I don't think it w…

This has been going on for more than a decade. I recommend to read at least the opening chapter: https://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-...

Yep, I've pasted that link in the past. It's now a proper classic.

Re: “User Engagement” Is Code for “Addiction”

#110

Post by ghoward »

montenegrohugo wrote: post #8

I'd add that algorithmic feeds are another part of the triad (quartet?), and probably the worst offender. Personalized addictive content is on the rise (tiktok, YouTube, even Facebook and Twitter curate your newsfeed "for you" ), and these ml-determined feeds drive engagement to the highest possible levels, leading to an incredible waste of time, a distorted world view (mostly the posts with the highest engagement wi…

I agree. In fact, I wrote about that fact on my blog. https://gavinhoward.com/2019/11/recommendations-and-radicali...
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