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Timezone Bullshit

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Re: Timezone Bullshit

#101

Post by datejfktn »

majewsky wrote: post #93
datejfktn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selection effect. Those who really cared about this commented. But what about the 99% rest of population? It's a mistake thinking that because they dont realllly care they will accept either way. Resistance to change is huge, especially when it plays into the narrative "Bruxelles demanded it" And what I meant by lack of popular consultation is that if you go on EU streets and ask about this change 95% of people will…

No representative democracy is asking the electorate to vote on each and every bill. It defeats the purpose of having a parliament in the first place.

I agree with you.

I was just pointing out that it's wrong to say this this decision had ample consultation, because overwhelmingly the population is not aware of it.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#102

Post by Ayesh »

k_sze wrote: post #71

When I use the "full" timezone name like "America/New_York", how does libc resolve the ambiguity during the extra hour of the transition from daylight saving time to standard time?

Tzdb has the date and time that location starts/reverts DST. It is updated regularly to keep up with regions changing the time zones. It happens frequently than many of us like.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#103

Post by dmurray »

bombcar wrote: post #89
Lvl999Noob wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really places that don't observe DST and also don't change their working hours? Just shift the working hours by a few hours when the seasons change. It also gives more granularity for the changes. If 1 week in the whole season is particularly cold, then change the time again for that 1 week.

Even with DST here we still have "winter hours" for many businesses where it doesn't make sense to be open late (10 PM in summer is still light out, 10 PM in winter, sun set 5-6 hours ago).

The golf courses are closed when it's too dark, but the offices aren't. You need to close the office a few hours before the golf course, even if your office business isn't strongly dependent on the amount of daylight.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#104

Post by rini17 »

tacostakohashi wrote: post #74
rini17 wrote: post #39

Tangentially, is there a standardized format for local time? ISO8601 has the same issue.

What do you mean? ISO8601 specifies a number of formats. It also specifies how to include the timezone/offset, and that not mentioning a timezone means local time.

So how do I properly serialize a datetime in Europe/Prague time zone? As the article explains the use case where "CET" nor "CEST" nor fixed timezone offset is sufficient. And my actual local time zone is Europe/Bratislava, which may eventually differ from Prague.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#105

Post by emmelaich »

phlo wrote: post #36
jwalton wrote: post #27

Another reason not to use EST/EDT is that they are overspecifying the time zone in most cases. If you ask for output in EDT, but the date is in December (which is not part of daylight savings time) then should the date output be UTC-4 or UTC-5? Technically you asked for EDT. Using EST as a shortcut isn’t a good idea, either - most software will “know what you mean” and use EST or EDT appropriately... except, both The…

> If you ask for output in EDT, but the date is in December (which is not part of daylight savings time) then should the date output be UTC-4 or UTC-5? EST is always UTC-4 and EDT is always UTC-5. Both of these exist throughout the year. The only change happening in Spring/Autumn is that some places change which time zone they currently observe. This also addresses the second problem that you outlined. As long as the…

Unfortunately not. Australia also used EST until recently. Now they've introduced AEST, but I'm sure there's systems out there using EST.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#106

Post by Macha »

kjakm wrote: post #100
datejfktn wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For once pretty much no one is aware of this supposed change. There was like a couple of articles on the day it was voted and that's it. This will 100% not happen, it's another one of those things that the EU parliament votes that everyone ignores, and it's perfect ammunition for those complaining that it makes laws without popular consultation. Trying to go forward with this change will generate massive anti EU back…

>> And then you have the UK problem. Having variable time offsets between EU and UK would add yet another layer of disruption on top of Brexit. It's worse than just EU/UK offset. You would have Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in different timezones.

Portugal and Spain manage it, but it would be extremely contentius among around half of the NI community.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#107

Post by davidgh »

mabbo wrote: post #47
Lvl999Noob wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the topic of DST... can you explain why some countries use DST? Anytime I look for the reasoning of it, it says that DST helps "make better use of daytime" but how? The earth isn't gonna say "Damn! These people changed their clocks. I better change by rotation and give them more sun time." Whether you have DST or not, you still have the same amount of time with sunlight in a day.

Golf courses. Well, okay, this is my wonderful father's half serious answer that I love to retell. The basic idea is that it's easier to convince everyone that is actually 5:00pm and time to leave work than it is to convince just your boss that you want to start work an hour earlier and leave and hour earlier. This problem is then applied to politicians and other powerful people, who want to go golfing after work. If…

Since 2018, 13 states in the US passed resolutions to get rid of the semi-annual clock changes but also that daylight saving time become permanent. Of course, federal law doesn’t allow them to do such (a state only has the option to not observe DST, but not the option to permanently observe it).

It probably depends somewhat on latitude and longitude, I for one would prefer year round daylight saving time as I like the extra evening light in the summer and it’s dark when my kids leave for school in the winter anyway. I don’t golf.

The idea of shifting working hours to account for the season changes might work in some contexts but not others. Sure, if I’m an office “information worker” it’s probably not a big deal to shift to 7-4 in the summer. But I don’t think that’s going to work for retail, grocery, post office, restaurants, gyms, pharmacies, etc. where the public isn’t going want to constantly adjust to and guess at changing opening and closing times.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#108

Post by ghaff »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #73
Lvl999Noob wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it was easier in the times before the internet. Now a consistent timeline should be far more convenient than not having to change your habits by a little bit. Edit: If changing schedule is normalized, then it would be just as convenient as changing the clock. In countries without DST, if someone started using DST instead of changing their own schedule, it would be just as difficult.

I don’t think anyone other than programmers thinks DST is much of an inconvenience. The clock changes twice a year, big deal. That’s infinitely less complicated than asking your boss if you can start earlier, which means the store at the subway station will need to be open an hour earlier (since its business comes from commuters), which means restaurants will need to be open earlier to address the lunch crowd, which…

In all fairness, people like parents with young children, pets, etc. find time changes disruptive. That said, there are good reasons to shift schedules in mid latitudes and daylight saving time is a good way to do that if you don't want 4am sunrises in the summer or heading out in the pitch black in the winter.

The reality is that if you don't do daylight savings, you're not going to have a collective switch in schedules and you're going to have to deal with what, for most, is sub-optimal sunlight.

Personally, I don't care much now because I mostly set my own schedule. But I'd have hated eliminating daylight savings when I was on a more fixed schedule.

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#109

Post by eqvinox »

outadoc wrote: post #94
de_Selby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the moral is that server side should always be in UTC.

Not true. Say you want to save an event that you know will happen on the 14th of July at 15:00 Paris time, in the year 2025. Current time zone rules tells you this will be at 13:00 UTC. Well, if France decides to abolish DST and stick to standard time before then, you'll be wrong.

No, they won't be wrong, because the TZ database includes historical data & will know that DST was still in effect at the time you saved the timestamp.

[Ed. Nevermind, sorry, I see you're referring to a future point. My bad. You're right.]

Re: Timezone Bullshit

#110

Post by ubermonkey »

tallanvor wrote: post #26
detaro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human-decided events in the future are an obvious example. E.g. "every second Tuesday at 8:00" or "May 17, 2025, 8:00" shouldn't ever happen at 7 or 9, even if your software didn't have accurate DST information for that point available initially (which countries do change, sometimes with only a few weeks of warning!).

What if you're scheduling a meeting for multiple people, and normally you're in Seattle, but for some of these meetings you'll be in New York? You don't want the meeting to be at 8:00 your time because chances are the people in Seattle aren't going to join your call at 5:00 their time.

As someone who routinely sets meetings for people in multiple timezones, let me say this isn't confusing.

All the calendaring tools I use or am aware of, at this point, keep up with time zone correctly (or have so far). I set the meeting for, say, 10 CST, and it's clear to my colleagues in Seattle that it will be 8 for them, just as it's clear for my coworkers in DC that it'll be 11.

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