HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know • Hacker News Board

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#101

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

bww wrote: post #93

jiggawatts wrote: post #14

Many people think that they live in a free democracy. In reality, something like 50% of all working people are employed in a strict hierarchical organisation that is essentially feudal in its nature. Most employees are the equivalent of serfs, overseen by lords, with a king in charge. The common employees don't get a vote. Their managers are not elected. They don't get a say in policy. The managers in turn form a str…

A less dramatic way to put this might be: the person who is paying the bill is the person who gets to decide. In a large company this may be some manager who controls the budget your compensation comes out of. If you’re an independent contractor this is your client. If you’re hiring a person to paint your apartment, this is you. Arguably, this is as it should be. Taken to its logical conclusion the alternative would…

>A less dramatic way to put this might be: the person who is paying the bill is the person who gets to decide.

Well, the reason they're "paying the bill" is because they have the money and you don't.

Which is as good as the King having gold and army, and you, the serf not.

>Arguably, this is as it should be. Taken to its logical conclusion the alternative would mean that nobody is entitled to make a decision about anything without taking a referendum on the matter.

If only we weren't forced by the laws of nature to take things to their "logical conclusion" (i.e. their exaggerated slippery slope ending), but could instead use some moderation and judgment, but still come with something better than strict hierachical dominance in companies...

If only...

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#102

Post by 1-6 » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

drstewart wrote: post #43

IT is not your friend either. They work for the company, not for you. Legal is not your friend either. They work for the company, not for you. Janitorial staff is not your friend either. They work for the company, not for you. Sales is not your friend either. They work for the company, not for you. Marketing is not your friend either. They work for the company, not for you.

Your co-worker is not your friend either (at first, or may never be).

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#103

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

bww wrote: post #93

jiggawatts wrote: post #14

Many people think that they live in a free democracy. In reality, something like 50% of all working people are employed in a strict hierarchical organisation that is essentially feudal in its nature. Most employees are the equivalent of serfs, overseen by lords, with a king in charge. The common employees don't get a vote. Their managers are not elected. They don't get a say in policy. The managers in turn form a str…

A less dramatic way to put this might be: the person who is paying the bill is the person who gets to decide. In a large company this may be some manager who controls the budget your compensation comes out of. If you’re an independent contractor this is your client. If you’re hiring a person to paint your apartment, this is you. Arguably, this is as it should be. Taken to its logical conclusion the alternative would…

[deleted]

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#104

Post by Boritanian » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

bananaface wrote: post #83

Boritanian wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A serf cannot 'quit' his lord. An employee can. Everybody can say 'NO' to the CEO. What you cannot do is agree to exchange your work for his money, and then when he asks you to work, say 'NO'. If you do not wish to work, simply cancel this arrangement. And the inquisition could BURN YOU ALIVE. HR cannot even physically touch you for fear of the lawsuit. This comparison is such an insult to the people who had laid the…

Oh, give it a rest. You're not actually outraged, you're just jumping on an opportunity to call him a hypocrite. The guy fumbled an analogy. I don't buy that you're that apoplectic about serfs from the 1500s. You get it, I get it, he gets it. It's fine.

I am not angry or outraged. I didnt call him a hypocrite.

People simply lose sight of the luxury and freedom that we have in modern societies. It takes active reflection and a study of history to really appreciate the things we have.

While an improvement to the economics system or the lives of the common man is possible, you cannot do it if you don't have an honest vision of what the current condition is.

So much work has been done to build the modern society. You wouldn't call linux a waste of time because it has bugs, would you?

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#105

Post by fartcannon » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:34 AM UTC

HR even eats it's own. At a company I worked for, after a merger with another company, one of the HR reps was tasked with laying off numerous people. It was the first time she did it, and it devastated her. At the end of the grueling week, HR laid her off.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#106

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:34 AM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #24

jiggawatts wrote: post #14

Many people think that they live in a free democracy. In reality, something like 50% of all working people are employed in a strict hierarchical organisation that is essentially feudal in its nature. Most employees are the equivalent of serfs, overseen by lords, with a king in charge. The common employees don't get a vote. Their managers are not elected. They don't get a say in policy. The managers in turn form a str…

With the major difference that these days a lot of people get to choose their employers. Yes, it's not perfect and not everyone can afford that, but we moved significantly from "you live here, this is your lord".

>With the major difference that these days a lot of people get to choose their employers.

That was true for many in the feudal times too, they could shop around and pledge their allegiance to one or another feudal lord, and even be given a plot of land to cultivate (as long as the lord got their share of the results).

If anything, the feudal lords left them even more to their own devices, and demanded even less of their produce (like 10% was common).

If it wasn't for the lack of technology and modern conveniences and frequent wars and dangers from outside, it would be a pretty good lifestyle...

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#107

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #29

jiggawatts wrote: post #14

Many people think that they live in a free democracy. In reality, something like 50% of all working people are employed in a strict hierarchical organisation that is essentially feudal in its nature. Most employees are the equivalent of serfs, overseen by lords, with a king in charge. The common employees don't get a vote. Their managers are not elected. They don't get a say in policy. The managers in turn form a str…

Are we talking about work or life? Sure, private companies aren't democracies, but why should they be? Democracies are extremely inefficient. Imagine if Linux or Python projects were run as democracies and not lead by BDFLs? I can't imagine them being nearly as effective because democratic processes to get new features would always be gridlocked. Benevolent dictators are 10x, maybe even 100x more efficient than democ…

>Are we talking about work or life? Sure, private companies aren't democracies, but why should they be? Democracies are extremely inefficient.

Isn't the common argument of economists that democracies are more efficient? (I do believe they're just paying service to their own governments, and just say what gets them grants and such, but in any case, that's the conventional wisdom).

Plus, democracies are "less efficient" compared to what dictatorship that did better than a democracy?

The main counter-example that comes to mind is China, and even them are mainly effective because of huge population and low labor costs, by being the place to outsource production by those democracies that can pay for it.

>I can't imagine them being nearly as effective because democratic processes to get new features would always be gridlocked.

Grid-locked by what? The purpose of voting in a democracy is to remove gridlocks. You don't even have to vote for everything, you can vote on a platform, and can delegate power for a certain time to someone to make the decisions, and then judge how they performed, and vote again after the period ended.

>Outside of work I certainly live in a free society. I can walk up to a rich person ("a lord") and insult him to his face and nothing will happen.*

You'd be surprised.

Plus, they can crush your neighborhood (e.g. to throw the tenants out and build some monstrocity), cajole with your lawmakers, fuck your working life, pollute your city/countryside/water supply, and usually nothing will happen.

And if they really cared, they could trivially have you killed, with nothing happening. It's just not worth the small risk of them being tied to it. But they hire legal teams and detectives to throw dirt at their enemies all the time..

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#108

Post by musicale » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:40 AM UTC

I imagine most people who have worked at a company probably know these things very well already, but it's nice to have them acknowledged and repeated publicly since companies rarely tell the truth in this regard.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#109

Post by musicale » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

juanbyrge wrote: post #54

Seems like OP observed something unsettling at the office, wanted HR to fire the perpetrator, and HR did not do that. Then OP generalizes and says that HR is not effective and not your friend. However, there are many gray areas where it's hard to justify firing someone. For example, let's say this person was acting passively aggressively and ignoring/avoiding someone. Is that a fireable offense? I am not sure it is.…

I think the point is that HR exists primarily to protect the company from its employees. It's very good at that.

Re: HR is not your friend, and other things I think you should know

#110

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

> Imagine working with a person like this when you're trying to get something done that involves their team acting like a gatekeeper. You get the approval from them on doing something one way, then plow a bunch of time into developing it, and then when it's time to deliver things, that same person gets in the way and stops the whole affair.

Every meeting should have a note taker who takes complete, accurate notes listing at a bare minimum every major decision, who decided it, and every action item including who it’s assigned to. Send it out to everyone involved with the discussion. Do it for every meeting so it’s not seen as some special event.

Every face to face conversation where a decision is made should be followed up with a written email basically saying “Per our chat on 3/5, you decided [very specific description of what was decided]. Please let me know if my understanding is incomplete.”

You need the paper trail!