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If you want peace, study war

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Re: If you want peace, study war

#101

Post by ncmncm »

lmilcin wrote: post #96
roenxi wrote: post #14

The scary thing for me about wars is that the soldiers aren't the ones making the decisions. Some group of people in comfortable offices look at a map, says "yeah, I think this option is more favourable to us than peace". Then a war happens. It is all about incentives and capabilities. One of the lessons from being a Stallman watcher for many years - people are profoundly evidence based . If there hasn't been a war i…

That's very simplistic view on military. Think of a corporations that make all decisions at top level vs corporations that at the top level mostly worry about creating correct environment for the individual contributors and low level managers to be able to make right decisions, individually. US military won the IIWW war because it created that right environment. Mobilizing people (people who are not interested in ach…

The US military did not win the war, at least in Europe. They pottered around in Africa, Italy, and Belgium while the Soviet army won the war. Ten of the ten biggest battles were on the eastern front, while a tiny fraction of axis assets held off the West for years. Western bombing (despite huge losses) had negligible effect on German industrial production, which increased right up to 1945. (US industrial imports to Russia through Iran were important, though.)

The US did win the Pacific war, despite that its torpedoes were wholly almost wholly non-functional until 1944. It won at monstrous cost in wasted Marine Corps lives, apparently because blockade work was not dramatic for home audiences.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#102

Post by lmilcin »

ncmncm wrote: post #101
lmilcin wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very simplistic view on military. Think of a corporations that make all decisions at top level vs corporations that at the top level mostly worry about creating correct environment for the individual contributors and low level managers to be able to make right decisions, individually. US military won the IIWW war because it created that right environment. Mobilizing people (people who are not interested in ach…

The US military did not win the war, at least in Europe. They pottered around in Africa, Italy, and Belgium while the Soviet army won the war. Ten of the ten biggest battles were on the eastern front, while a tiny fraction of axis assets held off the West for years. Western bombing (despite huge losses) had negligible effect on German industrial production, which increased right up to 1945. (US industrial imports to…

Hey, wars are messy business. Usually if there is so much disparity in power that the outcome is known beforehand it does not come to war.

US had declared Axis powers to be the enemy and then the enemy was defeated. Nobody questions that US was key to winning WWII. It seems impossible that soviets would hold if Nazi Germany was able to send all their resources to eastern front. Even with the help on the western front, soviets held JUST BARELY. And at key moment US troops landed in Italy forcing Hitler to divert his forces that were necessary to win battle of Kursk.

I don't see how you can question that US won the war, it is a fact documented by representatives of states involved in the war signing their capitulation to US.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#103

Post by TeMPOraL »

ersii wrote: post #43
toopok4k3 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But nationalistic drive has everything in common with how wars start.

In what way do nationalistic drive have everything in common with how wars start?

For a war to be supported by people (soldiers, and in democracies, civilians as well), they need to view the other side as the Other side. The Enemy. The Others.

Nationalism is about building a strong us/them split, about having people internalize clear categories of Our Nation and The Others. This directly facilitates war.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#104

Post by gattilorenz »

sudhirj wrote: post #49
lovelyviking wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean “time will tell”? It doesn’t tell already? Now when Russia have occupied parts of Ukraine?

Without condoning it, that wasn't an all out war. It's a really complicated situation and seems more like a political action. Less people were killed than in the Capitol breach, don't think anyone is referring to that as the second civil war.

> Less people were killed than in the Capitol breach

If the OP refers to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War there's thousands of deaths involved

Re: If you want peace, study war

#105

Post by watwut »

Razengan wrote: post #80
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural selection isn't good . In terms of “bad things to do to humans”, it comes in just behind eugenics, and that's only because we haven't worked out how to do that without horrible horrible crimes against humanity (yet). (Yes, natural selection is legitimately bad enough that “make eugenics less genocidey and then do that instead” is actually on the table – I am so glad the problem can probably keep for another c…

Whether humans like it or not and whether we want to admit it or not, wars do end up with mostly the fittest (not just in terms of physical ability, but also intelligence, cunning, etc.) surviving.

> wars do end up with mostly the fittest (not just in terms of physical ability, but also intelligence, cunning, etc.) surviving.

1.) There is massive random factor.

2.) The fittest are often selected for unit that have large mortality. That was the case of SS in Germany - supposed to be the fittest selection. And as result going to hardest fights dying the most.

In Russia, it was year of birth that made difference. The guys who were 18 by the start of the war died almost all. You was better off if you was 17 or 22.

3.) The fact is, the fit male goes to combat and is more likely to die. The weaker one who wont be selected for that, survives.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#106

Post by boomboomsubban »

robin21 wrote: post #92
boomboomsubban wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If by defensive you mean isolationist, both WW1 and WW2 were started because of US isolationism, and ended when the US became offensive and occupied Europe and Japan This is a truly impressive level of American exceptionalism. Wars only start if we let them, and then stop when we take an interest. >However, the CCP and Islam are ideologies that believe they can win against the West. Xi is doubling their nuclear weap…

> Wars only start if we let them, and then stop when we take an interest. The US wasn't always a powerful military force. It became this way after WWII. So no, it wasn't the case then, but yes, it is pretty much the case today. Every country knows that they cannot win a traditional war against the US - so the OPs point is correct here. It's just lucky that the US is not imperialistic. Imagine if China was the most po…

>It's just lucky that the US is not imperialistic. Imagine if China was the most powerful militarily.

Another jaw dropping example of American exceptionalism. Look at your link, notice how we call the start of the PRC the "loss of China?" Any country not under our economic and political dominion is labeled the enemy

Re: If you want peace, study war

#107

Post by foxyv »

"Causes of Civil War are also, that the Wealth of the Nation is in too few mens hands, and that no certain means are provided to keep all men from a necessity either to beg, or steal, or be Souldiers." - William Petty

While this is a quote about civil war, it points out a key fact. A country with a strong middle class is much less likely to send its children to war over stupid things. Even the USA barely sent 177,000 troops to Iraq and, despite a jingoistic upswell from 9/11, it was still terribly unpopular.

In my opinion, if you want peace, study poverty.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#108

Post by Laarlf »

History always repeats itself. Strong men create weak times, weak times create strong men. If you look at history, 1917 problems created 1932 solutions. What do we learn from that? Not a lot, apparently.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#109

Post by Bakary »

arethuza wrote: post #39
Danieru wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scary thing for me about wars is that the soldiers aren't the ones making the decisions. Letting Soldiers & Generals control the military is the exact mistake which lead to Japan's military aggression. Keeping the head of the military a civilian/politician is perhaps one of the few ideas everyone should be able to agree is smart.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is another example where if things had been left purely to the militaries of both sides things would probably have escalated very badly.

The story of the CMC is absolutely bonkers. There were so many close calls and possible disasters that I am surprised we even ended up in this non-nuked timeline, even with the anthropic principle!

Re: If you want peace, study war

#110

Post by saiya-jin »

foxyv wrote: post #107

"Causes of Civil War are also, that the Wealth of the Nation is in too few mens hands, and that no certain means are provided to keep all men from a necessity either to beg, or steal, or be Souldiers." - William Petty While this is a quote about civil war, it points out a key fact. A country with a strong middle class is much less likely to send its children to war over stupid things. Even the USA barely sent 177,000…

Richer folks also tent to study more and have say more options to expand their mind to various views, cultures and places. Far harder to manipulate/outright brainwash those into some patriotic bullshit about defending your home from those evil bad guys.

Unless you force drafts with hard punishments for those avoiding of course, but such an army would have very low morale not only these days.

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