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School or Prison

schoolprison.com

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Re: School or Prison

#101

Post by KingMachiavelli »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #92
jamespwilliams wrote: post #46

In the UK our prisons often look nicer than our (state) schools. Many of our prisons are quite ancient, whereas many of our state schools are 1960s monstrosities. For example: * https://hidden-london.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/geograp... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/James_Ho... * https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1185483.ece/ALT... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com…

It’s unfair to compare CLASP [1] buildings with centuries old stone buildings... The CLASP system was a stopgap measure for cost-effectively building schools for the baby boomer generation given the economic constraints of post-WW2 Britain. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consortium_of_Local_Authorit...

And given the purpose of a school, building it cheaply is very utilitarian as it allows you to build schools faster. I would rather have the institution be more effective than more pleasing to look at.

Re: School or Prison

#102

Post by hndudette2 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #76
ARandomerDude wrote: post #66

Public school is a prison where both parents can abandon their children to be raised by strangers while the parents chase what they really love: money. We make ourselves feel better by teaching them a few worthwhile things during their minimum 13 years in lockdown, coupled with a massive public jobs program, but most of it is a waste of precious family time where parents should be teaching and loving their own childr…

True, if by money, you mean enough wages to get food, clothing, and shelter. If people really loved money, you might expect a positive savings rate...

Agree that applies for the majority of people, but for others it's purely a status competition beyond what they currently have which they've decided to engage in.

Re: School or Prison

#103

Post by lambda_obrien »

cyberbanjo wrote: post #40
lukifer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault is explicitly referring to norms of behavior, not the shapes of buildings: - regular chronologies - forced labour - authorities of surveillance and registration

I believe it's that they're linked and both arrive out of the same logics of dominion, and authorizing use of dominion over a spaces and people.

Form follows function, I agree.

Re: School or Prison

#104

Post by AbrahamParangi »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #92
jamespwilliams wrote: post #46

In the UK our prisons often look nicer than our (state) schools. Many of our prisons are quite ancient, whereas many of our state schools are 1960s monstrosities. For example: * https://hidden-london.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/geograp... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/James_Ho... * https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1185483.ece/ALT... vs https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com…

It’s unfair to compare CLASP [1] buildings with centuries old stone buildings... The CLASP system was a stopgap measure for cost-effectively building schools for the baby boomer generation given the economic constraints of post-WW2 Britain. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consortium_of_Local_Authorit...

It doesn't look bad because it's cheap, it looks bad because it's inhuman.

Re: School or Prison

#105

Post by albatruss »

kiba wrote: post #79
albatruss wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the the nonsense you're conjuring up, with no argument or research, more valid than that of the renowned philosophers you are trivially dismissing? Doubt is good, but strong, unjustified claims are not.

Because the education system wasn't in fact designed to produce factory workers for a regimented system.[1]( http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model ) This is the problem with attributing purposes for which our ancestors never intended.

Interesting link, thanks for sharing. I read it and I think there's some miscommunication going on. The author is criticizing Sal Khan and like for suggesting that there was a deliberate, cohesive factory model (designed in order to..) whereas the commenter recounting Foucault here talks about the effects of the model, not its intention (designed in a way that...)

Indeed there is no mention of Foucault in that article. I read through her blog more and this is the first one I found that mentions the book in question http://hackeducation.com/2020/07/20/surveillance (also an interesting read)

Re: School or Prison

#106

Post by danielheath »

ThePadawan wrote: post #9

I did quite well by measuring "overall area of ground level windows".

See also "Is the front door designed to let one person through at a time, or many".

School buildings move their entire populations through the entrance in the space of 10 minutes. Prisons are more-or-less entirely designed to prevent exactly that from happening.

Re: School or Prison

#107

Post by lambda_obrien »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #85
jstummbillig wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. If our prisons end up looking open, warm and inviting, then that would be a very positive outcome indeed. That's not my takeaway, after looking at these photos though.

Prisons have to be resistant to the attempts of their occupants to escape, or to cause damage or destruction. This doesn't really seem compatible with warm and inviting.

Most prisoners don't want to escape, or cause harm, they just want to finish the term and go home and move on. I'd say you could have the honor system (unlocked doors) for 95 percent of prisoners, by letting them know if they escape they'll go to a more secure and less free prison. Then you make prison a place to learn new skills and get treatment for addictions and therapy, and you'll actually see some improvement in society. Also, send less people to prison.

Re: School or Prison

#108

Post by ineedasername »

tikhonj wrote: post #81
paulpauper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is because tall, rectangular buildings maximize volume to surface area, whether a hospital school or prison. It is not a form of social control or domination. it is more efficient this way. A one-story hospital would be prohibitively expensive to build in an urban area, and it is not like healthcare is not already too expensive.

High-end office builds are also efficient rectangular prisms far more often than not, yet they don't feel like hospitals, schools or prisons. I've spent extensive time in all of these except prisons, and I can tell you the difference is stark. What explains that? Is it all just down to expensive trim and interior decor? I'm sure that plays a part, but that was never my main impression. Instead, it comes down to the l…

High-end office buildings cost massively more to build. Also plenty of them put employees in a very aesthetically pleasing well-lit panopticon with open-plan seating. I much prefer my dingy fluorescent-lit office that has a door that closes. (And I turn of the fluorescent lights in favor of my own small lamp.)

Re: School or Prison

#109

Post by KingMachiavelli »

meekrohprocess wrote: post #22

A fun anecdote from my youth near a US seaboard was that our elementary and middle school buildings were designed by the same person who designed a few prisons around the area. When I bounced around cities later in life, I was surprised at how many of my peers said the same thing as a conversation piece. Maybe they used the same governmental bidding process. "Needed: a building. One food preparation and eating area.…

Both are often government contracts so they are often going to attract the same firms and contractors. They share a lot of the same requirements; large and cheap. The exterior facade needs to be easy to construct and unremarkable in that government building kind of way.

Re: School or Prison

#110

Post by ineedasername »

lukifer wrote: post #26
paulpauper wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is because tall, rectangular buildings maximize volume to surface area, whether a hospital school or prison. It is not a form of social control or domination. it is more efficient this way. A one-story hospital would be prohibitively expensive to build in an urban area, and it is not like healthcare is not already too expensive.

Foucault is explicitly referring to norms of behavior, not the shapes of buildings: - regular chronologies - forced labour - authorities of surveillance and registration

Outside of "forced labor", just about any large building is going to have people & operations that occur on fixed schedules and have some degree of security.
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