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What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

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Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#101

Post by petre »

zachrose wrote: post #90
analog31 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>>> There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). Schwinn made such bikes for decades. Folks stopped buying them.

Interesting, do you know what they were called?

Clunkers. The early MTB pioneers were racing them downhill in SoCal during the mid 70s. The bikes had coaster brakes which failed often with that kind if usage. Then they invented the MTB and everything changed.

Electra still makes them but they're quite heavy and too expensive. One could buy a much more useful urban IGH or 1x derailleur bike for the same amount. Like a Kona Dew.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#102

Post by ogre_codes »

Closi wrote: post #96
ogre_codes wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole premise is crazy. Automatic shifting on bike is not a good idea. While people are terrible at shifting at first, they can learn to get better. Automatic shifting never improves. It's meant to be simple, but basic maintainability is a nightmare. Changing a tire requires 3 tools and about 10 steps just to pull the tire off. Thats bonkers. Pretty much eliminates any chance of roadside tire fixes.

I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Maintainability is not a big concern for them - someone else does it (The last tire change the local bike shop did it for us for £5 + parts). They would completely be in the target market for this. If they were bu…

> I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills.

Aside from mechanical issues, shifting gears when you don't expect it is about one of the worst experiences you can have on a bike. Being in a lower gear than you expect and spinning out or being in a higher gear and having no traction is terrible. The Nexus is super easy to shift (and can shift when you are stopped) has a bigger gear range, and is predictable.

Also, when bikes were launched, these didn't exist. Now it's likely you can get an all around easier ebike for about the cost of one of these so it's a no-brainer.

> Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this"

No. My argument is nobody wants this you might think automatic shifting on a bike is a good idea, but every time it's been done people hate it. It doesn't work like an automatic in a car.

The fact that it's far more difficult to change a tire means users are even less likely to learn basic maintenance. It's nice to say "They'll take it to the shop!", but that doesn't help when they are on the bike trail 4 miles from their car. With a somewhat normal drive-train another rider can give them an assist. With this, it's unlikely anyone has the tools with them to help out.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#103

Post by OnlyOneCannolo »

ldiracdelta wrote: post #85
OnlyOneCannolo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even if people do know how to use gears, the gears are often in need of some adjustment, so people just stick to the ratios that happen to work.

Worse is better on shifters. Old school downtube, non ratchetting shifters just work.

Assuming you know how to work them, and are comfortable enough riding to reach down and fiddle with them.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#104

Post by ldiracdelta »

OnlyOneCannolo wrote: post #103
ldiracdelta wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse is better on shifters. Old school downtube, non ratchetting shifters just work.

Assuming you know how to work them, and are comfortable enough riding to reach down and fiddle with them.

And the entire market of 10-speeds figured it out before the new complex shifter systems became mainstream in th 90s. Fixees for the rest, I guess.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#105

Post by analog31 »

petre wrote: post #101
zachrose wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, do you know what they were called?

Clunkers. The early MTB pioneers were racing them downhill in SoCal during the mid 70s. The bikes had coaster brakes which failed often with that kind if usage. Then they invented the MTB and everything changed. Electra still makes them but they're quite heavy and too expensive. One could buy a much more useful urban IGH or 1x derailleur bike for the same amount. Like a Kona Dew.

Indeed, I own a 60's clunker, and enjoy having it for the experience and audacity of riding it, but you take the basic clunker concept and replace every piece with its modern counterpart, and now you've got a much better bike. For instance I wouldn't build up a new bike with steel rims, or expect any kind of performance out of a coaster brake.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#106

Post by Closi »

ogre_codes wrote: post #102
Closi wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Maintainability is not a big concern for them - someone else does it (The last tire change the local bike shop did it for us for £5 + parts). They would completely be in the target market for this. If they were bu…

> I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Aside from mechanical issues, shifting gears when you don't expect it is about one of the worst experiences you can have on a bike. Being in a lower gear than you expect and spinning out or being in a higher gea…

> My argument is nobody wants this

I'm saying I know at least two people in my immediate family who would want this, so I don't think nobody wants it.

It might not be any good, and informed purchasers might not want it after trying it, but I think people want the concept.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#107

Post by ogre_codes »

Closi wrote: post #106
ogre_codes wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Aside from mechanical issues, shifting gears when you don't expect it is about one of the worst experiences you can have on a bike. Being in a lower gear than you expect and spinning out or being in a higher gea…

> My argument is nobody wants this I'm saying I know at least two people in my immediate family who would want this, so I don't think nobody wants it. It might not be any good, and informed purchasers might not want it after trying it, but I think people want the concept.

These languished on bike shop inventories for 10 years largely unsold. Other automatic bike shifting has been around for even longer than that and they haven't sold well either.

Shifting gears isn't what keeps people off bikes, the average 10 year old figures out shifting gears in about 20 minutes. What keeps people off bikes is the fact that most places in the US are unsafe for cycling.

More or less everywhere it's safe to ride bikes, bike ownership and use increases dramatically using existing shifting technologies.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#108

Post by Closi »

ogre_codes wrote: post #107
Closi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My argument is nobody wants this I'm saying I know at least two people in my immediate family who would want this, so I don't think nobody wants it. It might not be any good, and informed purchasers might not want it after trying it, but I think people want the concept.

These languished on bike shop inventories for 10 years largely unsold. Other automatic bike shifting has been around for even longer than that and they haven't sold well either. Shifting gears isn't what keeps people off bikes, the average 10 year old figures out shifting gears in about 20 minutes. What keeps people off bikes is the fact that most places in the US are unsafe for cycling. More or less everywhere it's…

> What keeps people off bikes is the fact that most places in the US are unsafe for cycling.

This may shock you, but most people don't live in the US, and different people have different motivations for either cycling or not.

Although clearly you represent the everyman and can be the one-person-focus-group for the bike market!

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#109

Post by ogre_codes »

Closi wrote: post #108
ogre_codes wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These languished on bike shop inventories for 10 years largely unsold. Other automatic bike shifting has been around for even longer than that and they haven't sold well either. Shifting gears isn't what keeps people off bikes, the average 10 year old figures out shifting gears in about 20 minutes. What keeps people off bikes is the fact that most places in the US are unsafe for cycling. More or less everywhere it's…

> What keeps people off bikes is the fact that most places in the US are unsafe for cycling. This may shock you, but most people don't live in the US, and different people have different motivations for either cycling or not. Although clearly you represent the everyman and can be the one-person-focus-group for the bike market!

> Although clearly you represent the everyman and can be the one-person-focus-group for the bike market!

The bike market represents the bike market. As I said, these have been around for 10+ years and nobody buys them. It's not my opinion that these are undesirable, we know they are undesirable based on sales numbers.

Bikes with Automatic drive trains aren't popular in the US. ... or Europe. ... or Asia. ... or anywhere.

They are more expensive, heavier, and harder to work on than traditional bikes. Half-assed automatic shifting doesn't make up for those issues.

Maybe I'm off base and people just didn't like them because they are ugly. Who knows, but since it's been 10+ years now I think it's clear they aren't the fix-all for getting people on bikes Shimano designers thought they were. Maybe, just maybe, your mom and your sister aren't the perfect bellwethers of the needs of skittish would-be-bike-riders in the world.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#110

Post by to11mtm »

johnwalkr wrote: post #94

I had an internal geared hub (IGH) bike with a coaster brake and it was a blast to ride with almost zero maintenance. Even as an enthusiast that likes doing maintenance, it was nice to have that bike. I’m an advocate for IGH and drum or coaster brakes for casual commuter riders. Belt drives are nice too. These things have more drag than a derailleur and disc or caliper brakes, but this is offset by the maintenance as…

> On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears.

Part of that problem is there's a certain cost floor to Derailleur based drivetrains versus Internally geared hubs, and when you're an ODM mass producing you're at a whole different level of price structure.

> Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load

Ehhhhh..... So The Nexus 8 speed will upshift under load OK, but downshift you typically will have to pause pedaling for at least a moment for the shift to complete. I had one on a tandem at one point and even with two experienced riders it could do the upshifts fine. I think? some other IGH manufacturers have/had models that could shift in both directions fine, but they were very expensive models.

From my time slinging bikes (which was around when Shimano kicked off their 'Coasting' program,) where Shimano missed the boat was they didn't offer a 5 or 7 speed with shifting capabilities close enough to the Nexus 8. That would have been enough for everyone to be happy.

As an aside, It's fun to see all the different kinds of shifters Shimano cooked up for their IGHs over the years to sell people on them...

I'm still not sold on Drum brakes, in any case, but I'm also a Mechancial Disc zealot FWIW.

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