Live data from Hacker News

Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

japantimes.co.jp

101–110 of 291 posts

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine creates broad protection against the virus’s spike protein structure. If the virus mutated enough to evade this protection, it would have to develop a structure so radically different that it would likely no longer be able to attach to the ACE2 receptor. What is going on right now is mass anxiety. The vaccine is out, so humanity is imagining how things could still go wrong. The easiest thing to imagine is…

>> What is going on right now is mass anxiety. The vaccine is out, so humanity is imagining how things could still go wrong. Not enough anxiety, in my opinion. Tons and tons of people are still behaving as if everything is normal, or that they are somehow special.

So you think we need more irrational anxiety to control behavior? Mental health is just as important as physical health.

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#102
post #20
post #7

As discussed on TWiV yesterday, B.1.1.7 isn't a "strain," which has demonstrably different biological properties, but is still considered a "variant." https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-697/ Any biological differences are theorized solely from the genome at this point. In the episode, Racaniello is at pains to point out that genomic differences alone don't imply biological differences in say transmission, and things li…

TWIW has kind of painted themselves into the corner by insisting that anything except biological evidence is irrelevant. The evidence for B.1.1.7 being more transmissive is quite solid, and seems to be getting more so as time goes on. But no matter how strong the statistical data is, it could never be good enough for them. So their policy recommendation ends up as "do nothing at all until there is 100% certain non-ci…

> TWIW has kind of painted themselves into the corner by insisting that anything except biological evidence is irrelevant.

I definitely don't know enough about this topic to say you're right, but as an avid layman listener of TWIV for 8+ months now, I've recently started thinking along the same lines.

With the greatest of respect, Vincent Racaniello, while being clearly a true expert in the field, tends to take a very quick and polarised view to newly presented evidence, and can often sound like he's being overly dismissive to my layman's ears. To the degree where I end up thinking, "it can't be that black and white".

I get the sense that sometimes the co-hosts would likely go for a more nuanced perspective, and often they do try to soften the edges around some of his opinions, but the podcast is very much his domain.

By the same token, I've often heard him admit that he was wrong. The sign of a good scientist! So there's that.

Being in the UK, and having received head-on the full barrage of "communication" from our Government during COVID, I have learnt to be sceptical of the messages they put out, and defaulted to "cynical" when first hearing their report of the new variant at the end of a recent press conference. The more time goes on though, the evidence does seem to be mounting that we should be looking at this very closely and not dismissing it out of hand.

> The problem is that action now is way more valuable than action in 1-2 months.

Completely agree. We have to use a balance here of scientific evidence, but also strategic thinking - which may not be 100% scientific - and the strategy may be that it's safer to assume this variant is more easily transmissible, and act accordingly, rather than wait for the science to catch up and prove it 100%.

All of that said, re. TWIV - it has been a game-changer of a podcast for me during this pandemic. I thoroughly enjoy listening to the hosts, all of whom are generally good natured, clearly very experienced, and doing a good job overall of science communication. No view on COVID is going to be perfect, and in my view their output is a net positive (by far) even despite the above.

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#103
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or acceptable in the free world, fact is that the virus has only successfully been contained in big brother countries and island states. The rest of the world can not (and should not) try to replicate the same behaviour.

What do you find objectionable about Taiwan's Covid response, taking into account its success, not to mention the cost (in a general sense) of quarantining whole countries (which means restricting the freedom of millions of health citizens), and then not being successful, unlike Taiwan? In 2020, my mother (and millions of other citizens) spent more time at home quarantined than she would have spent in prison, had she…

She would have had her information stored in a database at all times along with the rest of us. She would have been tracked and monitored everywhere she went. She would have undergone an inspection anytime she went anywhere.

Your mom's quarantine is fine by me if it means the 80% of the population who are under 55 can live their lives.

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#104
post #89
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that action now is way more valuable than action in 1-2 months [...] If there is a substantially more transmissive variant around, that will make it much harder to buy that time. But which action? I can see two class of possible cause that do not entirely overlap in response: A singular cause such as a strain; or fluctuations as the emergent behavior of a complex dynamic system. If incorrectly attrib…

That seems like just a fancier way of expressing TWIV's "we can't possibly know anything without lab experiments that establish the exact mechanisms, so we should do nothing" philosophy. The undeniable fact is that this variant has successfully replaced other already highly prevalent variants. That needs to be explained somehow. Could it be a founder effect? No. Could it be random chance? No. Of course a stochastic p…

Do you have any arguments behind your "No."s?

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#105
post #79
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TWIW has kind of painted themselves into the corner by insisting that anything except biological evidence is irrelevant. The evidence for B.1.1.7 being more transmissive is quite solid, and seems to be getting more so as time goes on. But no matter how strong the statistical data is, it could never be good enough for them. So their policy recommendation ends up as "do nothing at all until there is 100% certain non-ci…

> The problem is that action now is way more valuable than action in 1-2 months [...] If there is a substantially more transmissive variant around, that will make it much harder to buy that time. But which action? I can see two class of possible cause that do not entirely overlap in response: A singular cause such as a strain; or fluctuations as the emergent behavior of a complex dynamic system. If incorrectly attrib…

> But which action?

In the UK, my view is the action to take was very clearly to dial back the public's expectations of having a 5 day "free for all" period of relaxation of our restrictions over Christmas.

This 5 day period, as originally planned, was going to lead to massive cross-country travel, plenty of it being completely unnecessary, with no doubt a lot of risk taking in the spirit of "it's Christmas" and an inevitable huge spike of cases and deaths in the weeks that followed.

I mean I love Christmas, but I can cope with not having 5 days of partying for just one year... *

As it happens, the government did take action to dial this back at the very last minute to allow just 1 day of relaxed rules (Christmas Day) rather than the week that was originally on the table. In my view they should have been planning for this right from the start and they unnecessarily screwed up a lot of people's Christmas plans by leaving it until the very last minute to make this change.

Now even if the variant turns out to be a "non issue" (and we still have rising numbers anyway), I think it's better that they took this action to further limit Christmas (as tough as it is for everyone) rather than take the "wait and see" or "hope for the best" approach, both of which seem to have been UK govnt strategies at one time or another during 2020.

* I'm being slightly flippant here. This is clearly a tough time for a lot of people, and many families will be spending Christmas apart and will find this very hard for all sorts of reasons.

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#106
post #79
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TWIW has kind of painted themselves into the corner by insisting that anything except biological evidence is irrelevant. The evidence for B.1.1.7 being more transmissive is quite solid, and seems to be getting more so as time goes on. But no matter how strong the statistical data is, it could never be good enough for them. So their policy recommendation ends up as "do nothing at all until there is 100% certain non-ci…

> The problem is that action now is way more valuable than action in 1-2 months [...] If there is a substantially more transmissive variant around, that will make it much harder to buy that time. But which action? I can see two class of possible cause that do not entirely overlap in response: A singular cause such as a strain; or fluctuations as the emergent behavior of a complex dynamic system. If incorrectly attrib…

> removing the public's focus on the more evenly distributed measures we are already employing

How is this focus "removed" and why is there any reason to think that evenly distributed measures along with targeted ones would be a problem for the public?

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#107
post #7

As discussed on TWiV yesterday, B.1.1.7 isn't a "strain," which has demonstrably different biological properties, but is still considered a "variant." https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-697/ Any biological differences are theorized solely from the genome at this point. In the episode, Racaniello is at pains to point out that genomic differences alone don't imply biological differences in say transmission, and things li…

> Polio was endemic, with low incidence, for thousands of years. Around 1900 it went from endemic to epidemic. Why? Did it suddenly mutate into a deadlier or more transmissable strain? While we don't have polio sequences from before and after 1900 to compare, we do know that rapid improvements in sanitation delayed exposure to the polio virus. Babies were now encountering the virus after maternal antibodies to it had waned!

What is the source for this? I've read another explanation: the overuse of pesticides like Paris Green, DDT (see pictures of kids literally sprayed with it on their clothing), and the use of "medical metals" to treat any kinds of diseases - giving mercury, arsenic etc. All of these (pesticides, metals) can weaken the bowels and allow the polio virus (which resides in the bowels) to enter into the spine where it then causes paralysis.

Maternal transfer of antibodies is one of my favorite immunity topics - it is far overlooked in usefulness lately, largely seen as impractical due to changes in lifestyle (not many mothers breastfeed)

Dear downvoters: what do you find does not contribute to conversation about sharing this theory?

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#108
post #79
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TWIW has kind of painted themselves into the corner by insisting that anything except biological evidence is irrelevant. The evidence for B.1.1.7 being more transmissive is quite solid, and seems to be getting more so as time goes on. But no matter how strong the statistical data is, it could never be good enough for them. So their policy recommendation ends up as "do nothing at all until there is 100% certain non-ci…

> The problem is that action now is way more valuable than action in 1-2 months [...] If there is a substantially more transmissive variant around, that will make it much harder to buy that time. But which action? I can see two class of possible cause that do not entirely overlap in response: A singular cause such as a strain; or fluctuations as the emergent behavior of a complex dynamic system. If incorrectly attrib…

Don’t you think this reflects a bias in the opposite direction?

Systems are dynamic and complex, but that doesn’t make them unknowable. If complex systems were impossible to model science wouldn’t be a thing.

Sure, the “new variant” narrative is an easy one to pick up because it’s superficially understandable; but what other complex interactions are resulting in a new strain becoming dominant over an existing one?

Do we just sit on our hands and go, well gee, better do nothing? Guess it’s just too hard to know what to do at this point...

There is a typical government fallacy that to be seen doing something is better than nothing, even when it’s the wrong thing... I get it, that’s bad.

...but this is a case where doing nothing has been a colossal disaster so far; and it’s extremely clear what the result of doing nothing different will be if the new variant hypothesis is correct.

So it’s a risk game. Is the cost * probability of A vs B a better choice?

You’re saying the probability is not known at this point because systems are complicated.

So what? It’s still clear to me that it’s very likely that something is happening, even if exactly what it is, is unclear.

You can still build a risk matrix taking that into account.

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#109
post #104
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like just a fancier way of expressing TWIV's "we can't possibly know anything without lab experiments that establish the exact mechanisms, so we should do nothing" philosophy. The undeniable fact is that this variant has successfully replaced other already highly prevalent variants. That needs to be explained somehow. Could it be a founder effect? No. Could it be random chance? No. Of course a stochastic p…

Do you have any arguments behind your "No."s?

I think I gave arguments for all of the "No"s except for the founder effect, which I'd just discussed in another message of this thread so it seemed redundant to do that again.

Just how much detail were you hoping for?

Re: Mutated Covid-19 strain confirmed in Japan as case tally hits record high

#110
post #60
post #7

As discussed on TWiV yesterday, B.1.1.7 isn't a "strain," which has demonstrably different biological properties, but is still considered a "variant." https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-697/ Any biological differences are theorized solely from the genome at this point. In the episode, Racaniello is at pains to point out that genomic differences alone don't imply biological differences in say transmission, and things li…

I’m a big fan of TWiV podcast (This Week in Virology) and I understand Racaniello’s point of view. However, this thread and other info I’ve read lead me to believe that this is an important new development. https://twitter.com/billhanage/status/1341857733633581063?s=...

Thanks for this link, a lot of valuable insight in those 17 tweets!

I share your opinion.

Post reply on HN