Live data from Hacker News

Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

nationalgeographic.com

101–110 of 143 posts

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the research of Ribosomes being quine-like? (the structural nucleic acids and genes for the protein parts are related).

While that is an interesting fact about the evolution of ribosomes, no kind of ribosome could have ever appeared, except after the process of RNA replication was already a perfected process. Otherwise the first ribosome would have disappeared soon after it was first assembled, without leaving any descendants. The first ribosome was probably made only of RNA, as there were no other ribosomes to assemble the ribosomal…

Couldn’t one take the view point that the formation of a transient ribosome could have created the conditions to solve replication?

This route would be much more of a dance than what you’ve implied. A transient ribosome makes a protein-based RNA replicase, replicase copies all local the RNAs including the RNA ribosomes. This process would eventually result in a large number of ribosome RNAs and replicase proteins without the need to have a “perfected process” prior to either step.

The whole process would be much messier than what we see today after millions of years of refinement, of course. The stability of an arbitrary RNA polymer is also increased by the presumed lack of RNases as well.

It has been a few years since I took a grad course covering the ribosome, so excuse my lack of currentness if new research has discounted this.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#102

But isn't there a major flaw here? If you require all 3 components (proteins, RNA, and lipid bilayers) as what classifies "life", then what necessarily created _those_ components? Aren't only basic compounds and elements the only thing naturally occuring in the universe? So where did the amino acids and fats come from? It's back to the chicken or the egg problem.

All of these components can form through nonbiological means. For example, amino acids[0] and nucleobases[2] can be found in interstellar gas clouds.[0] Lipid membranes form simply because of their polar properties.[1] [0] https://physicsworld.com/a/amino-acid-detected-in-space/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9928/ [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12404-1

oh wow, i didn't realize this. i had figured that these structures would be forbidden on an energy based standing. clearly not the case!

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#103
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite version of this classifies life as an exotic phase of matter in the sense of other exotic phases like Bose-Einstein condensates, etc. Life is a phase of matter in which the dynamics of information and Turing-complete computation overcome the ordinary dynamics of matter and energy. I am not aware of who originated this idea, but I heard it from Christoph Adami (a researcher in evolutionary information theo…

How is this model useful? It certainly moves away from our domain knowledge and paints a new picture that is considerably more fuzzy than the old one. What do you gain by considering life in such way? Side note: computation seems like a wrong term, because it's not about counting/calculating/determining any abstract value, is it? A Turing-complete mechanism maybe?

I find the idea of it as a phase of matter very conceptually elegant in that it neatly classifies life as a unique but still physical phenomenon. Nevertheless I agree with you that the details of the definition are hard to pin down.

Of course I have yet to see an attempted definition of life that isn’t a little squirrely or that isn’t just a list of criteria taken from the one example we have.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#104

> many biological molecules can be constructed from just six simple molecules, including water, methane... There is no news here. This is just the same speculation that has been made thousands of times before for decades. Of course we can make big molecules from small ones in a lab. Of course life has to reproduce, metabolize and have a boundary from the environment. Pointing this out is not "the key to the origins o…

> and have a boundary from the environment This is not self evident. Maybe this is the news? I am not sure, what are you saying?

Its part of the standard definition of life:

> organisms are open systems that maintain homeostasis, are composed of cells...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

Cell by definition have a boundary called the cell membrane.

>Cells consist of cytoplasm enclosed within a membrane...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#105

Considering that the first proto-computers were not programmable, I can't help but be skeptical that the first life needed genetic material. Certainly there were lipid membranes. Maybe there were spontaneous proteins, maybe there was purely-catalytic RNA. I guess it's also a matter of line drawing. I'm OK with calling crystals life, for example. One should feel bad about breaking up big ones the same as one should fe…

The crystal thing is throwing me (a geologist) off. Basically all Earth materials are crystalline. So rocks are alive (colonial organisms I guess since they are aggregates of crystalline minerals) but the magma that they crystallize from is not alive? Or is magma alive too? What about obsidian, which is glass but compositionally identical to a crystalline igneous rock. No crystals! The Earth's crust and mantle: Cryst…

As the ancients knew: All facts require an observer so life is what can be convincingly be identified as life by a human being.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#106
post #2

Probably because news articles don't use his name in their headlines

Looks like the title was changed to add it. I was also going to point out the irony that the news article cares more about the man rather than the discovery of the origins of life.

The headline oversells what this guy actually did and was probably penned by an editor interested in views and not the author. The HN admins seem to have agreed with me that the headline is bad and came up with their own much more accurate one.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#107
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crystal thing is throwing me (a geologist) off. Basically all Earth materials are crystalline. So rocks are alive (colonial organisms I guess since they are aggregates of crystalline minerals) but the magma that they crystallize from is not alive? Or is magma alive too? What about obsidian, which is glass but compositionally identical to a crystalline igneous rock. No crystals! The Earth's crust and mantle: Cryst…

Is key word "alive" or is it "conscious"? Or at least "sentient"?

Crystals are mostly not sentient, except for quartz. The high prevalence of quartz in the Earth's crust can be explained by the anthropic principle.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#108
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they? Some primates have better working memory than we do, for example. Of course we would never confuse another species for a human, but I also think we would not confuse a domestic house cat for anything else despite them coming in many shapes, sizes and colors, so I assume you mean something more profound than just that we look visually different.

>Of course we would never confuse another species for a human Yes, this is what I mean. There is seemingly no organism/species that I would confuse whether to classify it as human or not human but I'm pretty sure there are species/organism albeit is rare that I would be in hard time categorizing it as cat or not cat. Another example is human male and human female, albeit is rare but there is some human population tha…

Even if you might confuse a domestic house cat for some other creature, I'm pretty sure another domestic house cat would not, which is the relevant point of comparison here :)

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#109
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just wrong (as you say, careless). The criteria is "metabolism", not growth and reproduction. Similarly, viruses are not alive although they can reproduce. Interestingly, there are some highly parasitic organisms with limited ability to metabolize, that is, they have lost their genes and instead depend on their host organism (but I think all those examples still have some level of metabolic capability).

I don't really know what "metabolism" means, abstractly. I am deader than a virus without chloroplasts existing elsewhere. Viruses need a host for the productive bit, I had food for the non-reproductive bit. Viruses don't break down fast enough compared to their abundance to cause extinction, so why fault them for optimizing? People commonly theorize that virus came from rump parasitic cells. I wouldn't be surprised…

> People commonly theorize that virus came from rump parasitic cells.

I have an alternate theory, that I've never seen articulated elsewhere: Viruses might be inter-microbial biochemical warfare gone wild; Among primitive and not-particularly robust cells, one competitive strategy might be to package toxins or other disruptive molecules into capsids that cleverly get past the 'enemy' cell membrane, perhaps aimed simply at disrupting the initially brittle reproductive process. Packaging random genes in with these capsids would be the beginning of the Horizontal Gene Transfer function that viruses perform in the ecosystem. A refinement would be to add in the specific genes for producing capsids as a deliverable so a subverted 'enemy' then takes out several neighbors (but 2nd gen capsids don't have to necessarily contain the same genes in order to accomplish their 'mission', or even be entirely identical to the 1st gen, as long as they work). A further refinement would be increasing fidelity, and packaging the responsible genes into the 2nd gen capsids produced by subverted cells so the 'weapon' can spread exponentially.

And voila, the 'weapon' has now escaped the originating organism and can evolve independently parasitizing the target. Each incremental step can at least hypothetically provide an evolutionary advantage so the whole thing doesn't have to spring forth fully formed.

Depending on how widespread variants of the original strategy were, viruses might have independently emerged more than once.

If I'm right, we ought to still be able to find cells that attack or suppress competitors with capsid-like molecules that don't particularly resemble existing virus lineages, possibly containing non-genetic payloads of various sorts.

We might also find bacteriophage endoviruses that as their 2nd stage only produce capsids sans-genes or that otherwise aren't identical to the endovirus, or ones that aren't very good at packaging up the correct genes, or that are much better at disrupting cell reproduction than hijacking it, or that the subsequent copies are only low-fidelity ones that can similarly penetrate the host but not spread any further; basically any indicators that the mechanisms for penetration of the membrane, attacking the cell, and even for making poor 2nd gen copies, have been evolving longer than capabilities only needed for indefinitely repeated copying, retransmission, and reinfection.

I suspect though that the oldest reconstructible endoviruses will no longer be capable of penetrating current members of their host cohort, which tells us little about the virus itself, but may offer clues about whatever ancestral cells were still prone to infection were like.

Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life

#110
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, for quite a few fish they do, ditto amphibians and insects too. Mammals are the exception here, there the environment for replication is an integral part of the body of the parent. But in all those other cases, including, technically, marsupials it isn't.

Just because it happens outside the ‘parents’ body doesn’t mean the environment does it anymore than a mother being only a filter around the womb and the environment. An egg is a complex life that can reproduce the whole organism (and actually with energy stored INSIDE, that’s why they are great nutritios value for others)

The distinction between environment and organism here seems a little arbitrary. The organism’s cells have membranes, but they’re permeable and the organism can’t do its job without an interaction between itself and the environment. Even with the energy stored inside, it requires warmth and atmospheric pressure. I suspect there are any number of counter examples of life forms that challenge the simplicity of this formulation. You could just as easily argue that each cell is a life form unto itself, right?
Post reply on HN