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How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

mtlynch.io

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Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#101

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

Had an experience like this with Lufthansa where it owed me ~600 euros for a cancelled flight. Someone messed up over there and tagged my compensation as delivered, but no money had actually arrived in my bank account. I kept track of the number of emails it took to solve this: >30, 1-2 every week. That's only from me, double that for the total.

The customer service was simply repeating the same thing over and over: accounting says the money was sent. What aggravated the issue, was that basicly every email was replied by a different customer service agent. I pointed out to them that according to SEPA regulations it is the sender's responsibility to ensure that the funds reach the recipient, but they were ignoring it. I didn't think to ask to be forwarded to the legal compliance office. I did take legal action, sort of, by complaining through the EU out-of-court dispute resolution platform, but didn't receive any response through the platform (might have helped anyway, don't know).

What helped resolve it, was looking up SEPA regulations (because until then I was saying "this is your responsibility", they were replying "no it's not"), endurance, and a sense of humour.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#102
Inspiring!

Reminds me I have a bank and an insurance company to talk or rather write to.

They sold me insurance on my mortgage, then came up with new rules when my wife sadly needed it.

I was in a tight spot then so it ended up with my family having a boring time (cheaper food, Dad working more, less money to spend on toys, tickets etc - and we didn't have to much in the first place).

Now I do have time and I do have money and I am tempted to give it a go. It should be something around $5000 (two months worth og salaries for my wife).

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#103

I appreciate you actually naming the scumbags. It's tiresome how people are overly diplomatic these days.

"This company is ripping me off, but I'll protect its identity because I feel like I owe it something" is plain misguided and a huge disfavor to other participants in the market.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#104
post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

It’s incredibly scattered. Like you just dumped whatever was on your mind and clicked publish and walked away.

Thanks for the feedback.

I did spend several hours writing and editing it over a couple weeks, but I understand it might not feel cohesive.

The challenge was that there were a lot of details to cover to explain the background. The email exchanges were a bit convoluted because they involved a lot of backreferences to previous events or other screenshots. I wanted to tell the story in an interesting way while presenting the raw evidence instead of just summarizing everything and asking the reader to assume I'm being fair, but I can see how all the screenshots and blockquotes might have made it feel cluttered.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#105
Being very persistent and calm can go a long way when dealing with organizations in person: most customers, when confronted with a negative answer from a company representative will become irritated, frustrated and will want to terminate the exchange threatening to escalate to some higher authority, a boss (that is rarely available), the courts etc. It's a negative emotional state that most people want to stop.

What you need to do in those circumstance is realize that you still have immense bargaining power with the specific individual, that can, according to company polices present you with a negative answer that is profitable to the company, but in all other respects is severely limited and must behave in a courteous and professional way. You need to reflect that back to them, and repeat your claims ad nausea, bringing more arguments and repeating your point of view with the utmost calm, as if nothing they say is relevant to your problem. Verbally, you state your claims and non-verbally you deliver the message that "I can do this all day and will not leave until you drag me out with security, making a scene". You do not move away from the counter and/or follow the employee calmly, non-threatening continuing to repeat your claims.

The frustration will build up even in the most seasoned customers representatives. All of a sudden, you are no longer the company's problem - a lost or dissatisfied customer; you are THEIR personal problem, a persistent client that demands their rights and stops them from engaging with other customers. Should they make a scene and become rude or verbally or physically abusive, it's their job on the line, for failing to properly handle a demanding client; but if they continue being calm and professional with you, they are failing to do their job and serve other customers. Many representatives will cave under this pressure, if what you are demanding is in their purview, or, a the very least, be very happy to rid themselves from you by producing an actual manager with the power to solve your claim (that would very rarely be disturbed otherwise).

I have successfully used this method to negotiate out of unscrupulous baggage fees at the airport, obtain discounts at advertised prices instead of the "fine print prices" etc. It's a time-money tradeoff, as was this one here. The method is less efective over the phone where the representative has the power to terminate a call. In this case here one company official made a serious mistake by stating in writing something contrary to official company policies. You will usually not be that lucky in email exchanges with an unscrupulous company.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#106

I've probably had 10 such cases in the last 5 years: speeding tickets from countries I have not even driven to, medical services double-billed to both my insurance and credit card, ... all $100-300 range. I'm confident I could probably recover most, but at this amount, I just don't want to deal with it. It's one of those cases where I wish I had a personal assistant. It makes me think there's room for a "consumer deb…

>It makes me think there's room for a "consumer debt collector" service with a revenue share model.

There was a company called Service that kind of did this. They launched around 2015. You would tell them about a customer service dispute you were having, and they would call the business on your behalf and recover the money you were owed. I used them several times, and they were able to recover money for me without me having to do much except give them the details.

It looked like they had a few million in VC money to blow through because it was free, and there were no minimums on the dispute amount, so it definitely couldn't last. In Feb 2017, they added a 30% commission on recovered money,[0] and then later that year, they pivoted to focus exclusively on disputes with airlines,[1] which it looks like they're still doing.[2]

[0] https://us11.campaign-archive.com/?u=8cdf4d62d0219f237ed96d7...

[1] https://mailchi.mp/dcc5d15901c4/meet-service-20

[2] https://www.getservice.com/

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#107
post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

Strong disagree with the sibling comment. I thought it was an easy read and the timeline was clear.

I do think it ran a little long, but no worse than that.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the kind of stuff for which you'd rely on opening a dispute with your credit card provider?

I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction. I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail , wait 3 weeks, never hear back. Compa…

This might explain it - Switzerland is in Europe, but not part of EU. At least in EU consumer has lots of rights and is pretty well protected. I have no idea how that is in Switzerland (though what you report surprises me). That said, legal action in Europe... good luck. :)

If this happens to you a lot, go for a credit card. "Chargeback" works worldwide (afaik) and it puts you in the position of power, where merchant has to prove that you are in the wrong instead of the other way around. Simple solution and no real drawback.

EDIT: ...and change your CC company. They seem incompetent.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passive income gets mentioned a lot here. He's collected over $100 for previous conversions and about $60 after that, and he'll keep collecting as long as the affiliate program runs. It's not a lot of money in general, but you don't start a keto blog with dreams of billions either.

$100 to billions is an unrealistic step, and an unfounded generalisation of the author's circumstances. in this day and age something as benign as an "influencer" mentioning the word "keto" could butterfly-ripple the author into an early retirement

I actually don't know what you mean. The post I responded to said that the money recovered was not enough compared to the time spent. My point is, the money is not a lot, but considering it's a low income blog anyway (there is another blog post about that) it's not too bad, especially in terms of future reward, for which he basically does not need to do anything.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

Use your US CC, make charge-backs. Big surprise once for Wizz Air :-) In general: You have to find a weak spot. I have problems with a scam (ongoing) in an East European EU country and I have been trying to get the authorities for 6 months to act. Even hiring a lawyer has been extraordinary difficult. Most don't reply Emails, others charge exorbitant fees, our last lawyer is MIA so we are trying now with a lawyer tha…

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs

I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500.

Ryanair completely took the piss - they were very clearly trying to hold on to everyone's money for the duration, and ignored communications or offered ridiculous, short-lived credit notes in lieu of a refund. Several months passed like this.

Eventually I read up on how charge backs worked and called my card provider. They sent a form, and within a couple of weeks, the money was back in my account - the whole process was really straightforward, and I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain.

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