Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#101

Post by function_seven » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #76

arichard123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.

And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school whi…

If you need to spend several paragraphs designing a pair of strawmen to illustrate your point, consider widening your view on this.

> That is good however to claim that he should get the same privileges and standing as his brother who spent years working hard giving back and making better long term choices is asinine.

Nobody is complaining that minimum wage isn't the same as a software engineering salary. Just that the floor is too low.

Unless you think all minimum wage earners are ne'er-do-well convicts with multiple DUIs?

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#102

Post by andreareina » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #76

arichard123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.

And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school whi…

There's a world of difference between saying that Juan shouldn't have the same privileges and standing as Jamal, and saying that Juan shouldn't get a living wage.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#103

Post by vidarh » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #3

"Pinkerton: for over one-hundred years, the ones to call when you've got a union problem." I mean, that has to be their schtick, right, even if it's unspoken? Because that pretty much sums up what I know about Pinkerton, so I would assume they are happy with that. As for the topic at hand, yeah well, that's what companies do...for over one-hundred years as well.

To the point where if someone ever introduces themselves to me as a Pinkerton employee, my first instinct would be to assume they're immoral and not someone I want to know.

It's a company with a history of supporting exploitation wherever it's gone.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#104

Post by adwn » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #76

arichard123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.

And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school whi…

Your post is the very incarnation of the term "strawman". Less of this, please

(although I have to say that I found that part: "but spends several years "finding himself" aka partying, drinking and generally not doing much" kinda funny...)

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#105

Post by tjbiddle » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #68

fennecfoxen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same people? I marvel at their longevity! 128+ years is quite an accomplishment!

Corporations are people, legally.

And the people running those organizations change, biologically.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#106

Post by dcgudeman » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

CamTin wrote: post #88

dnissley wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do we draw the line? What tactics are ok for a company to use to combat unions if it doesn't want them? Or should companies just accept and work with any union that forms?

> What tactics are ok for a company to use to combat unions if it doesn't want them? They don't have a right to combat them at all. Union organizing is literally a human right. Of course ownership doesn't want them -- the feelings of ownership are (supposed to be) irrelevant.

It really amazes me what some people think qualifies for a “human right”. If you are paying someone and they are doing something you told them not to do isn’t it your “human right” to stop paying them? Where do you draw the line with what a “human right” is?

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#107

Post by pietrovismara » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #62

FpUser wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"... today ..." Are you implying that they were less greedy at some other time? The whole economy is driven by greed. Always was, always will. You can get some exceptions here and there but the general picture is pure greed.

It would be interesting if someone had a meaningful measure with which to compare corporate greed of today to the greed of feudalism, the greed of colonial empires, and the like.

Well talking about Feudalism, the economy was very different back then.

Money wasn't yet able to buy you everything, your birth family would matter much more. So feudal lords weren't driven by profit (profit didn't really exist as a concept as it does today) but by other values like glory, etc. Not to say that they weren't greedy, because they were indeed, but they certainly didn't think about infinite growth or perpetually finding ways to make shareholders richer, like your corporate lord would today.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#108

Post by Goronmon » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #76

arichard123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are getting payed $16 that is incredible for an unskilled labor position. That's one view, but it's only informed by "the way things are". Another view is based on the way things should be, that no one should have to work for less than the wage it takes to live a reasonable life. https://livingwage.mit.edu/ offers values for this. I don't see why someone should work full time and still end up poor.

And I disagree that everyone should get paid a loving wage. Let's take 2 identical twins Juan and Jamal (because if you've seen Juan you've seen Jamal). In school Jamal works hard, studies, and puts his efforts first. Juan on the other hand decides football is the way to go and along with that partying, drinking and at one point gets a gal pregnant. They graduate Jamal gets several scholarships and goes to school whi…

A "living wage" doesn't mean "middle class". A living wage means that a person is able to afford someplace relatively clean to live, feed themselves, afford heat in winter, etc.

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#109

Post by burkaman » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #57

patwolfe wrote: post #18

Really disappointing to see the "Well, what did you expect?" comments already. Just because companies have been trying to prevent organization of their labor for over a century doesn't mean it isn't still messed up now. It's easy to say that it's just the way the world works from your desk, the people who are forced to work in Amazon's warehouses with terrible working conditions don't have that luxury.

Where do we draw the line? What tactics are ok for a company to use to combat unions if it doesn't want them? Or should companies just accept and work with any union that forms?

Think about what you're asking. Replace the word union with "employees talking to each other and negotiating their contracts".

Re: Amazon reportedly has Pinkerton agents surveil workers who try to form unions

#110

Post by fennecfoxen » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #68

fennecfoxen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same people? I marvel at their longevity! 128+ years is quite an accomplishment!

Corporations are people, legally.

Common nonsense and entirely false.

Corporations are treated like people for certain elements of the legal process (like the question of civil rights) because they are owned and operated by people, as a way for those people to do things together as a group (like exercising civil rights).

This line is a strong indicator that you're with or have been influenced by the "I hate Citizens United" people, who never seem to bother to remember that Citizens United itself was incorporated as a nonprofit, making a movie about Hillary Clinton with (non-tax-deductible) donations, as an exercise in those peoples' first amendment rights — one which the FEC sought to stop.

Anyway, Pinkerton's corporation has been replaced by a successor legal entity wholly owned by Securitas AB.