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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#101

Post by slothtrop »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #90
slothtrop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a broad one. We've been here often, if for the sake of argument you control for issues that are brought forth like suffering or the environment, the overwhelming response will default back to saying those thing actually didn't matter because meat is murder anyway. Granted "some vegans" would be more precise, but that's still the sentiment.

The parent didn't indicate they were a vegan at all, they just described an ideal. You were just so ready to attack vegans that you don't appear to have read what they wrote.

> you don't appear to have read what they wrote.

I don't see how you could surmise that.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#102

Post by kempbellt »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #86
zed88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moral dilemma that vegans/vegetarians face is at what size we consider them sentient. Does the same apply to the micro-organism that vegans consume everyday on their salad? Or they are simply not sentient enough because we can't see them with naked eyes?

Vegans don't face any such dilemma. The animal kingdom is quite clearly defined and vegans are pretty consistently defined as not consuming animals or animal products. If you wish to take a more extreme position that considers other forms of life (and almost nobody appears to), that's no longer just veganism: it's something more extreme.

> Vegans don't face any such dilemma.

This is such hand-wavy bullshit. It's such a lazy response to OPs point...

Are humans animals? If so, should we not consume the products that humans create, in order to achieve perfect veganism? And if people are not animals, and I'm feeling a bit hungry........?

The computer or phone you used to post your comment is an animal product. Unless, yet again, we consider humans to be above animals, and therefore exempt from all the rules, and veganism is cannibalizing itself, philosophically.

Absolutist veganism (which is a beautiful idealism) exists heavily in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#103

Post by kaycebasques »

slothtrop wrote: post #60
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans.

No need for a blanket prejudiced statement like this.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#104

Post by slothtrop »

zaroth wrote: post #97
slothtrop wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcasm aside is killing a 1 year old, let alone at 12 weeks, more ethical than killing a day-old chick? The latter is basically post-natal abortion, which, is not a huge world different than abortion aside from consciousness of inflicted pain.

I don’t think there’s a binary switch at any single point from conception to birth to 1 year old where an organism switches from “not conscious to pain” to “conscious to pain”. The first few days / weeks after birth are certainly louder but otherwise not much different developmentally from the preceding days.

Certainly it doesn't change in an instant, that development is a process just like the rest. Still in the very early stages, "not conscious to pain" seems to be the case, but "conscious to pain" may begin earlier than people think.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#105

Post by slothtrop »

codingdave wrote: post #96
slothtrop wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcasm aside is killing a 1 year old, let alone at 12 weeks, more ethical than killing a day-old chick? The latter is basically post-natal abortion, which, is not a huge world different than abortion aside from consciousness of inflicted pain.

12 weeks is the point at which they have grown enough to be viable as a meat supply. Killing a 1 day old chick has zero purpose to the wider world - it is just killing. Harvesting for meat at 12+ weeks serves the purpose of feeding people. If you have an ethical problem with eating animals at all, this won't matter. Otherwise, killing animals for food is part of our reality, and waiting until the 12 week mark brings…

Good point.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#106

Post by lisper »

slothtrop wrote: post #94
tashoecraft wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is ever enough for anyone. Look at any discussion here. "This software should be fully free without ads", "this license isn't permissive enough", it's not distrbuted, it's not blockchain, it is blockchain, it's written in java. And I think it's fine. We need people on the extremes in order to put pressure and advance things, as extremes rarely get implemented, but meeting in the middle does.

> We need people on the extremes After 2020, I'd like to see more in the middle. I think extremes are overrepresented.

Human nature is very hard to change. What we really need is a societal mechanism that somehow forces (or persuades) those on the extremes to compromise. The U.S. Constitution was designed to be such a mechanism, but it doesn't seem to be standing up well to new technologies.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#107

Post by vulcan01 »

kempbellt wrote: post #95
dzolob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

This is a reducto ad absurdum takeaway, but I wonder if at some point will we consider the humans required to create said food, part of the "animals treated as commodities"? Unless humans are somehow exempt from the list, I don't see how this argument is feasible in the realistic sense. Humans are frequently treated as commodities, as any team over the size of 1 needs to delegate responsibilities to people. Hence, "d…

> Are they not being treated as a commodity to suit a need in that moment?

Kant calls this: using people as a means to an end.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#108

Post by netrus »

kempbellt wrote: post #95
dzolob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

This is a reducto ad absurdum takeaway, but I wonder if at some point will we consider the humans required to create said food, part of the "animals treated as commodities"? Unless humans are somehow exempt from the list, I don't see how this argument is feasible in the realistic sense. Humans are frequently treated as commodities, as any team over the size of 1 needs to delegate responsibilities to people. Hence, "d…

Firefighters get something in return for being firefighters. Otherwise, it is slavery, and it is indeed feasible to argue against any slavery. The animals in the farm get nothing in return, don't have a choice. It is hard to argue their life is better than no life at all.

No matter how philosophical you get, it is possible to be vegan, you only have to sacrifice some pleasure. If you value your pleasure over the miserable life of the animal, that certainly is something one can criticise without being inconsistent because "humans also need to work to buy food".

If you actually want to argue for better workers' rights and redistribution from the rich to the poor, to end the missery of the working man: I think that is a good point :)

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#110

Post by corndoge »

difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

> Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals

For what purpose?

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