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Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

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Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#101

Post by gknoy »

everdrive wrote: post #59
me_me_me wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doom scary creepy game? People flipped out when Doom 3 ended up being low light horror game and not a fast paced shooter. Heck the lore of the Doom is that the protagonist is the 'Doom of demonkind'. Its the game where you are not locked in room with demons but they are locked in room with you. > you're an unkillable demigod that's basically dunking on armies of demons That is the 100% the core idea of Doom lore. Tld…

If you were a child in the 90s, Doom was very scary. I'm not sure if a modern child could be scared by it. >That is the 100% the core idea of Doom lore. That was created specifically in 2016 Doom. Prior to that, Doom didn't really have much of a story.

Granted, I was a teen in the 90s, but I never found Doom to be scary. However, Wolfenstein 3D left me an anxious wreck -- likely because the AI always (seemed to?) know where you were. (I also didn't get to play Wolf3d until DOOM had already come out, so I don't think it's related.)

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#102

Post by bitwize »

phaus wrote: post #15
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you have to let the creative part of your brain do much more work to fill in the blanks, x100 this. Quake 1 was terrifying for me even though the pixelated graphics are poor by todays standard because my imagination would fill in the blanks making things feel way more scary. Just take a look at these pixelated creatures. Coupled with the soundtrack from NIN and Trent Reznor and the gothic atmosphere they feel way sc…

I think you are on to something about the impact being forced to use your imagination has. Quake 1 had amazing art direction and each chapter had its own feel because each of them was designed by a different dev following his own ideas. I think perhaps the biggest reason why Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal don't feel "creepy" like the old games is because they are completely missing the point. The newer games are fun, bea…

> However, instead of making a game that captures the essence of Doom its more like a Michael Bay version of Doom. Instead of desperately fighting never ending hordes of increasingly horrifying creatures from hell so you can get out in one piece and save the world, you're an unkillable demigod that's basically dunking on armies of demons for lulz.

Doom was structured in such a way that when you started off playing it was practically survival horror, but when you "got gud" you were practically the unkillable demigod. That's what I loved about it: it was so open-ended. It could be that way because its engine was so limited. There were only so many possible level layouts, and only a few different parameters that determined how enemies behaved. Using those, you could construct a combinatoric explosion of battle scenarios that ran the gamut from balls-out arena battle to hunting down enemies in dark narrow corridors and everything in between. Furthermore, the level data was small enough that the entire level, and all objects spawned within it, could live in memory at once. This made each level feel like a living world. Enemies from a faraway part of the level you haven't reached yet can spot you and start chasing and attacking.

In Doom 3, Doom (2016), and Doom Eternal, the engine is so unlimited that the designers had to basically pick a playstyle in order to narrow down the solution space, just to get started. Doom 3 opted for a survival horror style while the latter two games opted for a Serious Sam/Painkiller style combat game: move to area, sweep all enemies, move to next area, repeat. They feel more fun and more like Doom than Doom 3 did, but there's still something missing. Not that I blame them for adopting a few modern shooter conventions. Had they made it a total "boomer shooter" I doubt it would have sold as well.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#103

Post by jugg1es »

tjr225 wrote: post #88
jugg1es wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your description is pretty spot-on. Doom was released in 1993. Quake 3 Arena was released in 1999. Doom had all the ingredients needed to make Q3 but Quake 3 Arena still holds up as an arcade-style shooter, whereas Doom feels like a relic of the past. I think that period of time in the 90s was really a remarkable time in the evolution of digital entertainment.

I think Doom still holds up really well. I played it for the first time around five or six years ago and had a great time.

I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying my 7 year old kid would look at Doom and say "nope" but he would look at q3a and give it a chance.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#104

Post by phaus »

acomjean wrote: post #97
phaus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Doom scary creepy game? >People flipped out when Doom 3 ended up being low light horror game and not a fast paced shooter. A game can have a creepy aesthetic and even scare people without being a slow paced survival game where you walk around awkwardly pointing at things with a flashlight. The early games had creepy vibes at many different parts of the game. If you disagree to each his own. > you're an unkillable de…

Doom came out right when I left univeristy. Loved that game. I like the new Dooms too. I think they're fun. Way more "doom like" than anything else I've played since. The "New Doom" music/sound producer gave a pretty good GDC one hour talk about the music came about. Some fun stories there ( the sound easter egg story was fun). Its more than about just the sound, its about process and change. https://www.youtube.com/…

He's definitely talented and I did watch his talk a while back. It was a pretty good talk and pretty enlightening. I didn't realize how much effort some musicians put into setting up like 40 different pieces of equipment to achieve a single effect for a small part of a song.

The Doom soundtrack to me constitutes excellent video game music. I didn't enjoy it enough to listen to the OST like many folks did. I'm a metal head but it didn't quite do it for me like Mr. Bungle/Meshuggah does. I do listen to the parts of the Dusk soundtrack once in a while though.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#105

Post by tjr225 »

jugg1es wrote: post #103
tjr225 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Doom still holds up really well. I played it for the first time around five or six years ago and had a great time.

I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm saying my 7 year old kid would look at Doom and say "nope" but he would look at q3a and give it a chance.

Sure but your 7 year old kid would say the same thing about The Godfather vs the Matrix. That doesn’t mean The Godfather hasn’t aged well.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#106

Post by acomjean »

phaus wrote: post #104
acomjean wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doom came out right when I left univeristy. Loved that game. I like the new Dooms too. I think they're fun. Way more "doom like" than anything else I've played since. The "New Doom" music/sound producer gave a pretty good GDC one hour talk about the music came about. Some fun stories there ( the sound easter egg story was fun). Its more than about just the sound, its about process and change. https://www.youtube.com/…

He's definitely talented and I did watch his talk a while back. It was a pretty good talk and pretty enlightening. I didn't realize how much effort some musicians put into setting up like 40 different pieces of equipment to achieve a single effect for a small part of a song. The Doom soundtrack to me constitutes excellent video game music. I didn't enjoy it enough to listen to the OST like many folks did. I'm a metal…

I appreciated the sounds in that game, especially after getting better speakers.

Mr bungle... wasn’t that a 90s faith no more offshoot that was like crazy circus music? I’ll have to check them out again.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#107

Post by phaus »

acomjean wrote: post #106
phaus wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's definitely talented and I did watch his talk a while back. It was a pretty good talk and pretty enlightening. I didn't realize how much effort some musicians put into setting up like 40 different pieces of equipment to achieve a single effect for a small part of a song. The Doom soundtrack to me constitutes excellent video game music. I didn't enjoy it enough to listen to the OST like many folks did. I'm a metal…

I appreciated the sounds in that game, especially after getting better speakers. Mr bungle... wasn’t that a 90s faith no more offshoot that was like crazy circus music? I’ll have to check them out again.

They just re-recorded their first album which was a pretty straightforward but still weird trash album from 85 that's arguably as good as anything else from the era. It was recorded by a kid on a 4 track though so the quality of the original was too bad to really understand how good it was.

Dave Lombardo (Slayer Drummer) and Scott Ian (Anthrax Guitarist) joined three of the original members for the re-recording. Scott Ian was a fan of it back in the day and thinks it was more musically complex than what they and most of the other big metal bands were doing at the time. And it was written by 15-17 year olds inspired by Slayer's Reign in Blood.

But yes Bungle did a later album that was crazy circus metal and eventually they did a really great album of music that was less heavy (not metal at all) and more accessible called California.

I love all of it. Search for the 2020 version of Raging Wrath of the Easter Bunny for their new stuff. Easily the best album released this year IMO. RTJ4 was also pretty good though.

Bungle wasn't really an offshoot of FNM, it was the lead singer Mike Patton's first band. FNM is also criminally under-rated. Their only really famous song "Epic" isn't really representative of the rest of their work. IMO the follow-up album Angel Dust is the best album of all time. They experiment with lots of genres and its still weird stuff though so its not gonna be everyone's cup of tea.

Sample of the Re-Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U5ZKKxqUzY

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#108

Post by jldugger »

yellowapple wrote: post #11
jldugger wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until Halo came around Goldeneye and Turok would like to have a word, if you have a moment.

I can't speak for Turok (I only played it once, and don't remember anything about it other than something something dinosaurs), but Goldeneye probably doesn't have much of a word here; its controls were clunky as shit . And sure, that was part of the fun, and it's still an iconic game, but I'm very much glad that modern FPS games have adopted more sane control schemes.

Goldeneye had a Turok-style control option that I largely used: move with the arrow keys, aim with the stick, trigger to shoot, shoulder to aim. Circle strafing is simple, as is aiming up or down. Goldeneye's shoulder aim allowed players more precision, at a cost of mobility, which has a certain logic to it.

Overall it's fairly similar to Halo, without the extra buttons for crouch, jump, grenade, or melee. Halo's golden triangle would be functionally dead without them. But... the pro controllers exist for a reason -- you can't use a fleet of thumb buttons on the controller face if your left and right thumbs are dedicated to moving and looking.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#109

Post by jldugger »

b0rsuk wrote: post #17
jldugger wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until Halo came around Goldeneye and Turok would like to have a word, if you have a moment.

Which games imitate Goldeneye and Turok? I mean I guess you have a point that these games work, but the fact they've been ignored by game designers is telling something.

Honestly, the difference over time is just the addition of a second analog stick. The Turok move with one thumb, aim with the other style closely mimics mouse+keyboard.

And of course, LAN play really helps vs split screen matches, but thats mostly a function of the era rather than game design philosophy.

Re: Dusk is a 90s style shooter from the mind of a teenager (2016)

#110

Post by mecha_love »

leetcrew wrote: post #78
mecha_love wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think how the game plays is very important. Counter Strike 1.6, Minecraft, Wolfenstein etc. These games had a lot to offer as an experience, almost an arcadeish feeling. With CS:GO or the new COD games there is just so much to take in it just takes away the arcade feeling and makes it more of a movie experience rather than a game

whenever I go back and play 1.6, I'm always amazed at how crisp and direct the controls feel. it's hard to describe the feeling precisely, but modern fps games (even csgo to an extent) just seem clunky in comparison. it's almost like the feeling you get when you forget to turn off vsync. not sure if this is just my nostalgia kicking in or if there's a technical reason for this.

I totally get what you mean. The gameplay itself is just.. different. Not the story or whatever but strictly the movement. What you wrote about vsync just hit me on another level. I remember playing CS Source (don't ask) and that was just awful, I still played it for hundreds of hours, but it just was not hitting it like before. I think there is a technical reason for it, because I turned on CS 1.6 in between these comments and the difference was noticeable immediately
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