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A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

themarshallproject.org

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Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#101

10 years for non violent crime, that's barbaric.

My personal belief is that a non violent first offense should NEVER result in jail time.

Yep, Bernie Madoff should have walked, albeit with a felony strike and ruinous restitution.

The alternative is our current gulag.

[EDIT] And the subject of tfa is, apparently, not a first-offender.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#102
post #73
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a pacifist and a martial artist. My first approach is de-escalation. That has failed, and I've been attacked by people, and still did not want to hurt those people. Nor will I allow people to simply beat me up. I've defended myself by deflecting and avoiding their attacks, using their momentum against them and whatnot; and when necessary, various holds or joint locks. I've also successfully fled situations where…

Serious question but how do you get in so many situations that lead to violence?

There are plenty of places where something like getting mugged is a several-times-in-a-week occurrence.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#103
post #92
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a pacifist and a martial artist. My first approach is de-escalation. That has failed, and I've been attacked by people, and still did not want to hurt those people. Nor will I allow people to simply beat me up. I've defended myself by deflecting and avoiding their attacks, using their momentum against them and whatnot; and when necessary, various holds or joint locks. I've also successfully fled situations where…

I'm curious: is it actually rational to use more harmful techniques against someone significantly larger than yourself, someone armed, or a group of people? It seems as likely as not to be perceived as an escalation, and in those types of situations an escalation is likelier to mean you get permanently injured or killed. Of course, the best martial art is de-escalation and the next cross-country, but if you're corner…

Generally, in self defense the idea is to do as little possible up until it's decided that the assailant intends harm no matter what, which is when the goal is to incapacitate as quickly as possible. The example I was given by a friend who is well versed in martial arts:

> You are threatened by someone for your wallet. First and foremost, place your wallet on the ground, and run like hell when they bend over to pick it up. If they step over the wallet, incapacitate then run like hell.

The "step over the wallet" moment is when the decision is made that if you don't do something, you're probably going to be killed.

> if you're cornered and there's an unbalanced distribution of force, you're kind of screwed regardless of what you do.

This is where martial arts and self defense come it in. No matter how big the other person is, it's really hard to catch up to someone running away with a broken knee.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#104

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week. Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

Would decriminalization really help in this particular case? The author isn't in jail for dealing, possession, or consumption of drugs. They're in jail for breaking into someone's house and stealing things to buy drugs. That particular problem doesn't go away if drugs are legal. They still cost money. Maybe you can argue that legal drugs could be cheaper, but there's not really much evidence of that; legal weed is just about the same price as black market weed, often more. I have no reason to think that legal heroin or cocaine or other drugs would be so cheap as to eliminate crime related to obtaining drug money. People deep in the throes of addiction are still going to have trouble holding down jobs to feed their habit, and legal drugs are not going to be free. Making addiction itself less criminal isn't going to eliminate all the accompanying social problems. Addicts are going to have trouble working, maintaining relationships, caring for children, staying housed, or avoiding crimes related to both obtaining money for their habits or as a result of poor decisions they make while intoxicated.

I'm in favor of decriminalizing all drugs, because I don't think getting high should be a crime by itself; because I don't think the government has any right to control what people do with their own bodies; because the war on drugs costs a fortune and doesn't do anything to prevent drug use; because unregulated drugs are more dangerous than legal ones; and because our prisons are overflowing with people whose only crime was possessing the drugs themselves. But if someone breaks into my house and steals my shit to feed their habit, I still want them locked up. It's a terrifying experience to be victimized, and it's not always just a property crime; there's a lot of violent crime too.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#105

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week. Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

It isn't enough. Legalisation needs to happen, even for things I wouldn't touch. It isn't just about breaking a cycle, though not shaming addiction is helpful. It isn't just addicts that do drugs: I've met folks that do cocaine twice a year, for example. Few folks are addicted to LSD, and most folks only take MDMA occasionally. There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally. All drugs I woul…

Prices will compete with black market prices. Black market for weed in California is still a thing because it is much cheaper.

Edit: someone already mentioned it and provided evidence.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#107

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week. Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

It isn't enough. Legalisation needs to happen, even for things I wouldn't touch. It isn't just about breaking a cycle, though not shaming addiction is helpful. It isn't just addicts that do drugs: I've met folks that do cocaine twice a year, for example. Few folks are addicted to LSD, and most folks only take MDMA occasionally. There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally. All drugs I woul…

> There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally.

My anecdata contradicts this.

I know a lot of musicians who say "Yeah, they lied to us about pot. So, I assumed they were lying about everything else, too. And they were--except heroin. Do NOT do heroin--that's a path you do not want to be on."

I don't know of any who use it "recreationally" and control it. It just doesn't seem to work that way.

> All drugs I wouldn't take are safer if folks know they are getting, strength and purity are verified as much as possible.

I agree with this 100%.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#108
tldr; Don't get addicted to drugs folks, or you will end up like Ryan M. Moser. He didn't end up for prison from drugs per say, but from stealing to get more drugs.

This is why the initiative to decriminalize all drugs in Oregon is important, because it is setting up treatment centers to treat the addiction. It won't save people from stealing but could give many the treatment they need to not be in such a position to begin with.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#109
post #34
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

Some sort of cooperative living space; rehabilitative; access to plant medicines and therapy; nature to farm.

> access to plant medicines; nature to farm

Last time I checked unusual punishments were prohibited.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#110

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week. Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

Would decriminalization really help in this particular case? The author isn't in jail for dealing, possession, or consumption of drugs. They're in jail for breaking into someone's house and stealing things to buy drugs. That particular problem doesn't go away if drugs are legal. They still cost money. Maybe you can argue that legal drugs could be cheaper, but there's not really much evidence of that; legal weed is ju…

It _could_ have helped because, for example, here in Oregon where we just decriminalized they are taking tax revenue from marijuana sales and building drug addiction treatment centers. If you get caught with a small amount of the drugs, you pay $100 or have to go to an appointment at the drug addiction treatment center.

It _could_ have helped in this case because maybe Ryan M. Moser would have gotten help and broken his addiction with a treatment center that didn't have shame and felony crime associated with it. Maybe Ryan M. Moser would have sought help. Maybe. And at least Ryan M. Moser would have had the option if the drug addiction treatment centers were more accessible, walk-in style.

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