How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#101

Post by doggosphere » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization).

Unions are owned/compromised of workers. Workers vote on issues that affect them.

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries.

Absolutely true, but if demand wasn't so high and supply wasn't so short, what happens to worker leverage and treatment?

Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees.

Equity compensation is a result of the pressures of a competitive labour market. If companies could get away with not handing out equity, they would. But since the other guys are paying so well, they are forced to up the ante.

Also, barriers to entry in software are almost 0. If you can't get someone to treat you well, you can have your own software company paying your bills in 6 months, or VCs funding your startup.

An exaggeration. You're not getting hired at the big players without a degree and/or significant experience. Software engineering != entrepreneurship. The majority of software devs would not be able to pay their own bills after 6 months of working on their own projects. Most projects fail.

There is a reason all the big sports leagues are unionized with player associations (also highly skill specialized, limited labour supply pool). They are able to negotiate for 50% of league revenue and establish protections. There are downsides; the highest earners are giving up their ability to earn true market wage (ex: a salary cap creates a wage maximum on an individual). But in general I've never heard a pro athlete say that the union has not given them measurable benefit and otherwise higher long term gain.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#102

Post by diggernet » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #87

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes. How exactly do you see something like this coming to fruition without labor organization? There’s no way federal law like this happens without some sort of coordinated effort to compel congress to pass such a law.

So don't start at the Federal level. Start local. Which is pretty much how the US is intended to work. California made non-competes non-enforceable. No reason your state can't do the same.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#103

Post by scsilver » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

We dont need a union, we need a stronger professional organization with appropriate licensing/apprenticeship, akin to other engineers, doctors, accountants, lawyers ect.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#104

Post by creato » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

A lot of the pro-union push is coming from largely the same set of people that are big activists on social issues/politics, and the union push feels in part like a power grab to gain leverage on those issues. I simply don't agree with the activists on some of the issues they are activists about. On the issues I do agree, I still don't feel that union pressure is the right way to go about it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#105

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #81

dayjobpork wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This literally makes no sense. Australian unions have been giving free representation to immigrants bring exploited by employers

And then, for those in Australia that support that cultural heritage of labour unity, may their unions prosper. If it will offer clarification, I speak in the context of America.

It's rather parochial and essentialist to imagine that American labor unions are inherently anti-immigration. This country was founded by immigrants after all, and certainly more recent immigrants can bring in new innovations that can improve our current flawed institutions. Perhaps the next generation of labor unions can do better. To imagine that there is a "context of America" that is fixed and unchanging is to both deny the many cultural contributions that immigrants have brought to this country, and to deny that this country's context is perpetually changing.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#106

Post by ardy42 » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #90

ardy42 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but so what? Don't most organization have rules designed to allow them to function as an organization or solve specific problems they encounter? It's not like an Apple employee can freely blog about the unreleased product they're working on or simultaneously work with Samsung on a competing product.

Yeah. And the SAG rules aren't unreasonable IMO. But a union is not replacing the existing rules of your workplace, it's a second group of people who can add rules.

> Yeah. And the SAG rules aren't unreasonable IMO. But a union is not replacing the existing rules of your workplace, it's a second group of people who can add rules.

Yes and no.

1) Rules aren't interchangeable, undifferentiated things. An employer's rules are meant to mostly benefit the employer. Rules a union adds would be to mostly benefit its members.

2) A union can get employer workplace rules changed in its negotiations, if its members objected to them and they have enough negotiating power.

3) That "second group of people" could possible include you as a union member, and if it doesn't, it's a group you would have far more influence over than company management.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#107

Post by fatnoah » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

ry454 wrote: post #50

andlarry wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed to help with severance when they got rid of 40% of their staff a few months after the union was formed [0]. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...

How much was that severance exactly?

IIRC, four months pay and health insurance for those making > $110k and six months for everyone else...or something like that. That does seem pretty generous, especially for a company that small.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#108

Post by doggosphere » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #89

heavyset_go wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

How would a tech union help in that case?

Stronger representation in a class action lawsuit; negative consequences for corporations in the form of sanctions, walkouts, etc.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#109

Post by jahaja » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

Yes, the US with their famously good worker benefits. Even the lowest paid worker in Sweden get more vacation and parental leave than you can even dream of in the US (No need to reply with your personal exception). That was achieved through the hard work of the labour movement.

How do you explain the following discrepancies if unions are indeed only serving themselves:

* The vast differences in labour benefits between Western Europe and the US.

* The vast resources US corporations spend on spreading anti-union sentiment and direct union busting (I mean, come one, corporate altruism to help the workers avoid union fees or what?).

Unsurprisingly this whole thread is a swamp of comments that passes off unions in truly the worst propaganda caricature there is.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#110

Post by onion2k » Wed, Oct 07, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries.

How do we test this hypothesis? Do we know that tech companies couldn't afford to double the wages of all their staff, or is that an assumption we've made based on high wages relative to other industries?

I imagine the likes of Apple could certainly pay their devs a lot more.