Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore • Hacker News Board

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#101

Post by notahacker » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

frank2 wrote: post #62

MrPowers wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LKY ruled from 1959-1990. Singapore's GDP over that time grew at a 14% compound annual growth rate: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SGP/singapore/gdp-gros... .

Part of that is from population growth. We can control for population growth by using GDP per capita: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SGP/singapore/gdp-per-... --which gives a rate of growth of 10.7%, and some of that will be inflation: the data is denominated in USD, which famously inflated rapidly in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Here is my math: solve for rate where e ^ (31 times rate ) = 11828 / 428. (I a…

The time series you linked to is already inflation adjusted, so I'm not sure why you're adjusting again. On a more practical level, over that period it went from a colony whose inhabitants mostly lived in shanty towns to somewhere William Gibson compared to Zurich, Atlanta and Disneyland in an essay complaining about the dullness of its prosperity.

Singapore's per capita GDP was close to double South Korea's in 1990, though its divorce from Malaysia was less messy than the Korean War.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#102

Post by bitwize » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

sradman wrote: post #44

The closing lesson: > forget grand ideologies and others’ models. There is no replacement for experimentation, independent thought, and ruthless pragmatism. The trick is distinguishing between what is truly pragmatic and not merely ruthless. One wonders if some of the illiberal policies like caning are regional necessities or minor pathologies that did not overwhelm the overall trend towards liberalization.

It works. It convinces people not to vandalize buildings and such.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#103

Post by jackcosgrove » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

> Yet history is littered with the failures of authoritarian modernist regimes. Indeed, the record of utopian schemes to improve the human condition is dismal in the 20th century. In the Soviet Union, Stalin’s plan to transform “small, backward and scattered peasant farms to amalgamated, large scale socialized farms” led to brutality and starvation for millions. In China, Mao’s Great Leap Forward propelled the nation into the Great Chinese Famine. Even Le Corbusierian plans in Brasilia or Chandigarh have become embarrassing examples of government hubris. Why did authoritarian modernism work well for Singapore and poorly for others?

And given this track record, why is high modernism still given such pride of place in the minds of the highly educated, who ostensibly are more attuned to contradictory evidence than the average person? Singapore is held out as the model when it is the exception.

I guess in the words of an old song, "everybody wants to rule the world."

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#104

Post by earthboundkid » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

1) LKY’s autobiography is incredibly readable. Highly recommend.

2) It’s bizarre that discussions of “socialism” turn on Venezuela and the USSR instead of Singapore, which was explicitly governed by socialism.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#105

Post by jagannathtech » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

rudiv wrote: post #48

sfifs wrote: post #46

0ne of the pieces many articles discussing Singapore miss is actually the quality of the people in the Government officer corps. This i think makes a massive amount of difference in that a lot of what's planned in infrastructure and processes is much better thought out and executed than in other countries. It's the equivalent of the 10X programmer philosophy. This is achieved largely by the government sponsoring the…

> The Indian government's elite corps (IAS) as a contrasting example are also composed of similarly brilliant people, but only restricted to the people at the very top of the hierarchy and is not true for bulk of the government, nor is compensation as competitive which promotes corruption. It may be anecdotal, but in my experience the officers of the Union Public Services are in most cases not particularly brilliant,…

I share the same view of yours.

btw brilliant or not, it is like a switch flips in their brain once they become an IAS.... emperor of the universe/feudal lord firmware gets installed.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#106

Post by langitbiru » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #15

fakedang wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to type a disagree until you edited that last bit. I don't mind the authoritarianism, since the authorities seem very proactive towards encouraging foreign tech startups, but creativity is near zero and heavily sanitized, and most devs are poorly treated, I guess due to the massive glut of technical folks for the tiny population it has. Singapore feels so artificial, just like another Dubai. Going to Lond…

I also noticed that the foreign startups they lured in with their juicy incentives were not the better ones. Nonetheless they probably still believe that the same techniques that brought in Shell in the early days needed to be adapted for the "modern world". Despite throwing money at tech salaries are still poor. Everybody gets that money except the developers.

They managed to persuade Grab to move from Malaysia to Singapore though.

Tech salaries are not poor if you compare them to other South East Asia countries (Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, etc). If you compare them to other professions in Singapore... then I can't say (I don't know).

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#107

Post by _7fvc » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

This article doesn't mention that Lee Kuan Yew was a staunch supporter of the Khmer Rouge. It's a genocidal regime that killed millions of people. Lee remains a strong supporter after he knew about the genocide. He also made efforts to dodge responsibility. He said the US and China were bigger supporters than Singapore. Financially, the US and China contributed more money. But Lee Kuan Yew seems to be the mastermind behind the support for Khmer Rouge. Lee Hsien Loong, son and successor of LKY, also made comments to revise the history.

Singapore's role in the Cambodian–Vietnamese War against Communism probably contributed to its rise. Singapore gained credibility amongst Western leaders.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#108

Post by leafboi » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #103

> Yet history is littered with the failures of authoritarian modernist regimes. Indeed, the record of utopian schemes to improve the human condition is dismal in the 20th century. In the Soviet Union, Stalin’s plan to transform “small, backward and scattered peasant farms to amalgamated, large scale socialized farms” led to brutality and starvation for millions. In China, Mao’s Great Leap Forward propelled the nation…

Obviously the world is a super simple place with super simple answers to seemingly complex questions. When I asked my friend which is better authoritarianism or democracy he told me the answer is complicated. I told him to look at the evidence:

Almost Every civilization in history: egyptians, romans, greeks, China was more or less some form of authoritarian government. They all failed.

Basically every single civilization that existed before modern civilization existed Failed! The fact that the United States of America hasn't failed means the US way (democracy) is the best and only way!

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#109

Post by bhupy » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

eunos wrote: post #71

api wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting... I immediately contrast this with the American drive to make government work undesirable. This has led to a mass exodus of competence from government all the way to the top. Even the office of President is now sought by a bunch of third rate candidates: bland old bureaucrats, delusional ideologues unfit for the real world, and con men and narcissists like the current occupant of the office. Have we inte…

Well "Starve the Beast" exists . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

"Starve the Beast" is a bit of a boogeyman, because the actual size and spending of government hasn't changed, only the deficit has.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#110

Post by leafboi » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

_7fvc wrote: post #107

This article doesn't mention that Lee Kuan Yew was a staunch supporter of the Khmer Rouge. It's a genocidal regime that killed millions of people. Lee remains a strong supporter after he knew about the genocide. He also made efforts to dodge responsibility. He said the US and China were bigger supporters than Singapore. Financially, the US and China contributed more money. But Lee Kuan Yew seems to be the mastermind…

Let's not turn this into a character assassination. That's what they do in politics and I hope HN is above this stuff.

Henry Ford invented the modern factory by bringing the conveyor belt into the manufacturing system. He was also an anti-Semite who supported Hitler.

Do not ignore the fact he was an anti-semite, but also do not ignore the fact that he invented the modern factory.

People are complicated, contradictory and multifaceted creatures... be unbiased and do not discount one quality because you disapprove of another.